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hawkeye
Linux Geek

Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Posts: 2408
Location: Inventors Corner

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 9:33 pm Post subject:

First off, I still stand by what I said in the post before the previous post.

Gandalf wrote:

Again, I appeal to you to show me where in Scripture it says we, as individuals, should kill someone for his misdeeds. It's just not our place.

If someone can show me a book, chapter, and verse (from the Bible) that says we (the individual) should take justice into our own hands and kill those who "deserve" it, then I'll reconsider my opinion.

What about David killing Goliath? And Jehu and 2 or threee nuchs throwing Jezebel from her window? (2 King 9:30 - 37) What is the difference between a small handful of people vs a single person? In fact, read the surrounding chapters. Also, 1 Kings 2:13-46, 2 Samuel 21:15-22. Need I continue?

Yes. A the group in many of my examples are behind the person that performs/orders the execution, but one person is responsible

Gandalf wrote:

I'm not arguing that we should or should not be in Iraq, however, if the ONLY reason we are going to Iraq is to free the people there, then I would say off the top of my head that it's wrong. Just as God has ordained president Bush to be the leader of Americam, God has ordained Saddam Insane to be the leader of Iraq. However, since Saddam is a threat to US safety, it is then Bush's obligation to "take care of him".

Abraham Baldwin
Richard Bassett
Gunning Bedford, Jr.
David Brearly
Jacob Broom
Daniel Carroll
George Clymer
William R. Davie
Jonathan Dayton
John Dickinson
Oliver Ellsworth
William Few
Benjamin Franklin
Elbridge Gerry
Nicholas Gilman
Nathaniel Gorham
William C. Houston
William Houstoun
Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer
John Langdon
John Lansing, Jr.
James McHenry
John F. Mercer
William Paterson
William L. Pierce
George Read
John Rutledge
Richard D. Spaight
Caleb Strong
George Washington
Robert Yates

These people, among with thousands of others would disagree with you on liberating Iraq. THe only difference between what they did for us and what we are doing for the Iraqi people, is our warriors were leaving the government, whereas we are changing the government. However, we do have many more, equally qualified reasons to attack Iraq. Are you willing to give up your Constitutional rights because American Colonists were fighting for freedom, something you say is not acceptible?

Jared
Cute and Cuddly

Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Posts: 4672
Location: Pennsylvania

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 10:13 pm Post subject:

Gandalf: you hit the nail on the proverbial head. Great post. Hawkeye: The people you listed, from the American revolution, fought for THEMSELVES to throw off English rule. Also, David killing Goliath was part of a war. And the assassination of Jezebel was an internal rebellion. Note that the Assyrians didn't come help. Not that it's WRONG for a country to assist in revolution, but there had better be a very good reason for doing so.

Gandalf
Cursor Always on Submit Button Member

Joined: 30 Nov 2002
Posts: 876
Location: Desolation

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:28 pm Post subject:

coughs Last edited by Gandalf on Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

Gandalf
Cursor Always on Submit Button Member

Joined: 30 Nov 2002
Posts: 876
Location: Desolation

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:50 pm Post subject:

Hawkeye wrote:

Gandalf wrote:

Okay, first off, the examples of David and others like him are not valid. They were working under the authority of God given leaders (namely Saul). If you'll go back and read my post one more time, I said it is right for one to stop murderers IF it is within the law. I'd say the king of Israel ordering you to do it would be within the law...

2nd, while I love the Old Testament, you cannot take one or even a dozen examples of something people did to justify what you do. One MAJOR difference, they had a direct link with God (let's not get into the debate of "Yeah, so do I" cause I believe in prayer and all that. God actually said "so-in-so, do this"). If one is claiming to recieve insights that contridict other Scriptures from God now days then I would have to lump them into the same group as Jehovah's Witness, Mormans, etc. The simple fact is that we do NOT recieve God's voice in our ears so we cannot say "God has ordained me to kill Dr. Babykiller".

Basically what I'm saying is this: those are examples. I can show you examples of genocide, polygamy, nudity, etc. from people that were in God's will. Does that mean we can go do the same things? NO! (at least I hope you realize we can't). Unless you can show me a Scripture verse that says that we, the New Testament Church, can take justice into our own hands and kill a murderer, then we're back to square one again.

Gandalf wrote:

Hawkeye wrote:

Check your history my dear fellows. These people were not fighting to liberate anyone, though some historians may say they were. No Jared, they were not even fighting to liberate themselves. They were already liberated and they were fighting because England had violated their soverenty. I can just see your faces now (WHAT????), but if you will recall, the King of England had declared the colonies "in rebellion to the crown and no longer under his jurisdiction", or in other words, "you're no longer my problem buds". They were free. Those people were fighting for the same thing we will be fighting for in Iraq: Defence of OUR nation, not rebellion against God given authorities.

Okay now, let's give examples of people who fought for liberty just for the sake of liberty:

Citizen Robspier (SP?)- French revolution

Lenin (sorry guys, I can't remember his first name!)- Russian revolution; forerunner of Joseph Stalin

Bill Clinton- many "liberating conquests" for other countries durring his presidency. All of them failed within 8 years time.

The Macabees Family- Macabee's revolt against *Rome?*

Spartacus- A slave who revolted against the Roman empire; every one of his followers was killed if I remember right.

You see, rebellion against God-given authorities has never and will never work. The consequences are always terrible. Every single one of the above were fighting against evil, corrupt, murderous governments- but they were still God-given governments. The major problem these people forgot is that government reflect the people. If you have an evil government it's most likely because God is punishing those people. Good things have NEVER come from people, of their own will, revolting against their governments. The French revolution resulted in a more tyranical government with thousands executed for no reason. The Russian rebellion resulted in the rise of the Soviet Union. And both revolts against the Roman empire resulted in death to those who revolted. No where, not in the Bible or history, has it been a good thing when people, of their own will, have rebelled against their governments.

Just some more thoughts to think about.

"Be Ye subject to EVERY governing authority"...

hawkeye
Linux Geek

Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Posts: 2408
Location: Inventors Corner

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 12:25 am Post subject:

Gandalf wrote:

Hawkeye wrote:

Gandalf wrote:

What of the Old Testament law that tells the Isrealites to kill murderers? The Old Testament still applies, BTW.

Gandalf wrote:

2nd, while I love the Old Testament, you cannot take one or even a dozen examples of something people did to justify what you do. One MAJOR difference, they had a direct link with God (let's not get into the debate of "Yeah, so do I" cause I believe in prayer and all that. God actually said "so-in-so, do this"). If one is claiming to recieve insights that contridict other Scriptures from God now days then I would have to lump them into the same group as Jehovah's Witness, Mormans, etc. The simple fact is that we do NOT recieve God's voice in our ears so we cannot say "God has ordained me to kill Dr. Babykiller".

We do have a direct link to God. The Isrealites went through a priest, we go through our priest, Jesus Christ. No difference. God has lain out laws in the Old ans New Testament that we are to follow. THe only one we don't follow are those that are no longer applicable after Jesus' ressurection (about the only one that isn't applicable is offering sacrifices to atone for sins).

Gandalf wrote:

Then why did they sign the Declaration of Independance? Why after that did the King of Engalnd send troops over to the Colonies? Why did people force Benjamin Franklin to say "We must assuredly all hang together, or we shall most assuredly hang separate!"? Why did the King impose a tea tax? Why did the colonists hold the Boston Tea Party? Why did they scream "No taxation without representation"? Why? Because they were indeed fighting for freedom, independance, for their and our rights. Brittain did NOT give up on the Colonies until his soldiers were sent home war ravaged and shackled (figuratively speaking mostly). Once American's showed they could stand up to Brittain, and would not be tread upon, Brittain left only after they had put forth their best effort to regain control. Brittain did NOT want to let the Colonies go because there was immense wealth yet to be found, that they didn't want to loose claim to.

Jared: Yes, they fought for themselves, because they were able to, but they fought not for them to enjoy the freedom, but so their posterity could enjoy the freedom. Remember, most of those who signed the Declaration of Independance were tried and punished as traitors, thus, most of them never saw the stabilization of the New World.

Gandalf
Cursor Always on Submit Button Member

Joined: 30 Nov 2002
Posts: 876
Location: Desolation

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:26 am Post subject:

hawkeye wrote:

Gandalf wrote:

Hawkeye wrote:

Gandalf wrote:

What of the Old Testament law that tells the Isrealites to kill murderers? The Old Testament still applies, BTW.

I'm not saying the OT doesn't still apply. I love the Old Testament very mcuh, but those laws were written to the Israeilite GOVERNMENT! Yes, I agree that GOVERNMENT should execute murderes (fry 'em baby!). On judgement day, you are not going to have to give account for why Joe Murderer wasn't executed and struck again, the American Government (and whoever happened to be running it) will be.

hawkeye wrote:

Gandalf wrote:

We do have a direct link to God. The Isrealites went through a priest, we go through our priest, Jesus Christ. No difference. God has lain out laws in the Old and New Testament that we are to follow. THe only one we don't follow are those that are no longer applicable after Jesus' ressurection (about the only one that isn't applicable is offering sacrifices to atone for sins).

I knew you were going to say this... *sigh* I guess I didn't make myself clear before. We do have a direct link with God. Prayer and the Bible. However, we do not have God appearing in a cloud and telling us what to do anymore. Therefore, we have to check what a spirit tell us with what we know of God, IE, the Bible. Since the Bible states among other thing "Be ye subject to every governing authority", "Vengence is Mine, I will repay", etc. then we can't just go out and say "Hey dude, God told me to murder him!". That philosophy leads to old what's-his-name that kidnapped Elizabeth Smart.

Hawkeye wrote:

Gandalf wrote:

Go read your Declaration of Independence. One of the major complaints in it is that the King had declared them non-citizens. I have never said that people should just lay down and let any government that wants to walk all over them (which was what Brittain was doing, after the King declared them out from under his jurisdiction, he imposed taxes, sent troops, etc). That's like saying the French resisitance in World War II was wrong because they fought Germany after they were taken over. That's simply not the way God designed it. Most of the Revolutionary War, it was Brittain who was acting out from under their God-given authority. I will say that there were patriots who saw the revolution as a rebellion. They thought that they themselves were fighting for the sake of liberty. I believe that these people's views had and still have serious consequences to the American Government, namely, the Civil War.

"Be ye subject to EVERY governing authority". I have to ask you, if it's ever right to rebel against a God-given authority, wouldn't Rome have been the place? They were immoral, justice was non-exsistant except for Roman Citizens, and they murdered Christians by the hundreds. Wouldn't you say that is the government you should rebel against? But it's under this very government that Paul writes these words to the Christian Church.

You see, it's not up to us to decide when government is no longer ours. In the case of the American revolution, it was the former government, but in many (well actually all) cases, it's God. By saying we should take up arms against our God-given authorities, then you're saying that God just isn't powerful to remove an evil government without your puny aid. If He wanted your aid, don't you think He would have said something to the affect of "And when thine government becomest evil, thou shalt rebel and throw off the chains of tyrany"? But He didn't, instead He said "Be ye subject to EVERY governing authority". It's just not up to us to decide our authorities.

hawkeye
Linux Geek

Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Posts: 2408
Location: Inventors Corner

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 11:42 pm Post subject:

But people are what make up the government. People are what carry out the orders. Sometimes God uses people to bring punishment.

Gandalf
Cursor Always on Submit Button Member

Joined: 30 Nov 2002
Posts: 876
Location: Desolation

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 11:01 am Post subject:

You say that, but you haven't yet shown from Scripture where it's our place as the New Testament Church to punish anyone (besides disciplining those under our authority)! BTW, People do not make up the government in most places. In fact, 200 years ago, America was the only place they did. As I've said before, if government tells you to do something AGAINST Scripture or tells you that you can't do something REQUIRED by Scripture, only then do you have the right to rebel, other than that, it's out of our hands. You say God uses people in punishment? I don't claim to be an expert on the ways God work, but could you give me an example of when God has used people to bring punishment? It seems to me, looking at history, that the people "punishing" is in and of itself a punishment. You see, I believe there comes a time when God says "You don't want me in your government? Very well, I'll leave", Nothing after that is in God's will and I don't think you can blame God for the consequences. Again, as examples I submit Rome, Greece, France, and Russia. I don't think it was God's will for anything that happened in those countries to happen. Sure, He allowed it to happen but that's because He is a gentleman and doesn't usually interfere unless asked. And lastly, where in Scripture does it say "by the people should the king rule"? I don't believe it does. It is STILL not our decision which government we are under. It's God's. My advice is this: Unless your government is telling you to do or not do something Unbiblical, be subject to it. It's not your place to decide when you no longer want it around.

hawkeye
Linux Geek

Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Posts: 2408
Location: Inventors Corner

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 8:29 pm Post subject:

Gandalf wrote:

You say that, but you haven't yet shown from Scripture where it's our place as the New Testament Church to punish anyone (besides disciplining those under our authority)!

Refer to my last post where I give (OT) references to this. Remember, the Old Testament still applies, even you agree.

Gandalf wrote:

BTW, People do not make up the government in most places. In fact, 200 years ago, America was the only place they did. As I've said before, if government tells you to do something AGAINST Scripture or tells you that you can't do something REQUIRED by Scripture, only then do you have the right to rebel, other than that, it's out of our hands.

Ah, but I don't mean in the democratic sense, I mean in the only humans can rule in the physical side. When a judge (human) determins a person guilty, a guard (human) takes the criminal recieve their punishment, and then, depending on the method, then an executer (human) does the deed. Even if it is done via remote or a switch, etc, ... a human still initates the machines. Thus, people make up the government of ALL governments, even if it is only a handful of people.

Yes, I agree, if the government doesn't line up with scriptures, then we should very cautious about obeying the government.

Gandalf wrote:

You say God uses people in punishment? I don't claim to be an expert on the ways God work, but could you give me an example of when God has used people to bring punishment?

How about those aforementioned verses for starters? I can also reference Jericho, among many other instances.

Gandalf wrote:

And lastly, where in Scripture does it say "by the people should the king rule"? I don't believe it does. It is STILL not our decision which government we are under.

We have a choice of righteous or non rightous government. The laws, and even Jesus' statements to obey the governing authority is an extension of "Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for it is right." Thus, obey the government in the Lord. But if the government isn't in the Lord, then we should not obey them. On this, I think we agree. This is when we can choose our government.

But back to the originall discussion, liberating people from unjust governments is just as right as removing abused/neglected children from their abusive/neglecting parents. And the Bible does encourage us to care for them.

Gandalf
Cursor Always on Submit Button Member

Joined: 30 Nov 2002
Posts: 876
Location: Desolation

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 10:10 am Post subject:

hawkeye wrote:

Gandalf wrote:

You say that, but you haven't yet shown from Scripture where it's our place as the New Testament Church to punish anyone (besides disciplining those under our authority)!

Refer to my last post where I give (OT) references to this. Remember, the Old Testament still applies, even you agree.

Again, I don't believe that examples and laws given to the Israelite government apply to you and me as individuals. None of those references you have given are directed at a regular joe-blow guy who would represent an average person. The examples are, well exceptions. And as I said, the law about punishments etc. was given to the Israelite PEOPLE (IE, thier form of government), not to the individual. If you'll remember, I believe all the punishments are "and the whole congragation" after the judge had made his decision. It wasn't for the individual person to decide.

Hawkeye wrote:

Gandalf wrote:

Okay.... And your point is exactly what? Of course government is made up of people, but those people are ordained by God Himself and it's not our place to question them.

Hawkeye wrote:

Gandalf wrote:

You say God uses people in punishment? I don't claim to be an expert on the ways God work, but could you give me an example of when God has used people to bring punishment?

How about those aforementioned verses for starters? I can also reference Jericho, among many other instances.

I'm starting to feel dizzy from going around in circles. A few examples from the Old Testament when they had visions and God's voice in their ear and you think that apply's to you? I guess we can go out and just wipe out entire ethnic groups then? After all, they did it in the OT! And let's see, start sacrificing our children (depending on your translation, or just send them off to convents)? After all, they did it in the OT! Or perhaps we should start waving our hands over water and praying that it parts? They did it in the OT! Do you see where I'm going with this? One cannot simply pull an example out of the OT without any other Scripture references and excpect that to give him liscence to have a rebelious heart against God-given authorities. And as for Jericho, I think it would be best if we just forget you even said that. That EXAMPLE was one nation going up against another in a God ordained mission, not a people going up against their government.

Hawkeye wrote:

Gandalf wrote:

And lastly, where in Scripture does it say "by the people should the king rule"? I don't believe it does. It is STILL not our decision which government we are under.

I can't believe you even wrote this. Where does it say we have any choice of government? And how is it that you see being "subject to governing authorities" is an extension of "obey your parents IN THE LORD"???? That's just adding and twisting Scripture to fit your views in my opinion. I'll bring up AGAIN that the verse "be ye subject to every governing authority" was written to a people oppressed by the Roman government (who was certainly not "in the Lord"). And are you saying the Bible doesn't mean "every" when it says "every"??? *starts to mutter* Why didn't the Holy Sprit just write what He meant instead of making us wait 2000 years until you came along to properly translate it?

We are to always be subject to our governing authorities. However, our ultimate authority is God Himself, and so the ONLY time we have liscense to disobey another authority is when it contradicts a HIGHER authority. IE, if our government was completely corrupt and allowed all sorts of immorality to go on, we STILL have to be submisive to it UNLESS they start making us do unbiblical things.

Hawkeye wrote:

But back to the originall discussion, liberating people from unjust governments is just as right as removing abused/neglected children from their abusive/neglecting parents. And the Bible does encourage us to care for them.

WOAH! Slow down here. I think we're back to twisting Scripture to match our views. Where do you see countries and children are even closely related? I'm not saying it's not in there, but I can't remember off the top of my head where it does say to care for abused and neglected children. Could you drop in a reference please? (BTW, just in case your thinking about using it, "abused and neglected" do not mean "orphaned") But anyway, that's a completely different issue. Even if the Bible does say to care for abused children, where does it say to liberate oppressed countries? I don't see the connection.

BTW, as Americans, it is our duty to at least report abused and neglected children (and elderly), it's in the books and it's not an unbiblical action so we have to do it.

Here's the overall problem: You're having problems realizing that government is God ordained to serve a purpose. If it's a righteous government that its a reward to the righteous. If it's a wicked government that its a punishment to the wickedness of the people. It's just not our place to step up and decide when God's justice should end and His mercy to begin. We're not God and we're not privy to every detail of God's plans.

The situation in Iraq is different because Saddam Hussane has threatened the people of America and it's our government's job to protect us. They have the right - and the duty - to go to war to protect us. However, we have no rights to go attack, say Cuba (unless they threaten us) just because they have a wicked tyrant.

If it is ever our place to rebel against our God given authority, then I'd like you to show me from history (meaning AD) where it has had good results and quite obviously was in God's will. If those OT references apply to us then it should be easy to come up with examples in the recent past?
Remember, I've already addressed the American, French, Russian, and Roman revolutions so let's try some new ground.

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