The Town Hall Archives

Jared · Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 9:04 pm Post subject:

I think the people of Iraq are very ready for a democracy. They hate Saddam... and they don't want to get into that mess again.

Look at the former Soviet-controlled nations that broke out from under the control of communist dictators. Once they turned to democracy, did the people vote in new dictators? No! Instead, these countries are some of the most democratic in the world. Really!

Westerners who go to Iraq say that in the private of the ride in a taxi, the driver begs their help to escape the regime. When reporters interview Iraqis, they tell them that they love Saddam. Then, if the minder slips out, they beg the reporter to try to secure immigration papers for them in secret.

These people know what it's like and they don't want it to ever happen again. Will the leaders of Iraq be perfect? No... but Iraq will not return to dictatorship. They will select leaders who will represent them, not oppress them. And they will be a government who works closely with the United States. And, incidentally, with Israel!

The man who may become the interim president of a liberated Iraq has given a few interviews to various TV news outlets: Fox News, BBC, etc. He's a Sunni Muslim, yes. But he was talking about putting together an administration consisting of Sunni Muslims, Shi'ite Muslims ... and Christians! Currently, Christians in Iraq live in fear. Under the new government, they could hold high positions.

And please don't tell me that Arziz was an example of a Christian in Saddam's government. He was a man who used a veil of "Christianity" (Catholicism, actually, in case you wondered), so that he could negotiate and look more civilized even as he ordered mass executions. Christian? Absolutely not.

Yes, Iraq can - and I believe will - become a democracy. I look forward to that day.

extraneous interference · Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 9:39 pm Post subject: Democracy in Iraq

To be sure, democracy (stable or not, Bush is determined to set up a democracy) will one day come to Iraq. However, I am not convinced that Iraq will be the same as countries from the former USSR. Iraq is different in fundamental ways:

1) The population is Muslim (the majority being Shi'ite muslims, but 1/3 Sunni). The muslim faith, is by definition, anti-Christian. the muslims remember the Crusades more than you think, even though that was hundreds of years ago. they still foster a hate for anything Christian, meaning a hatred for Europe and North America. They see the USA as representing the Christian world, even though any Christian would reject that. (the fact that Bush is known as a Christian probably renews this idea.) Democracy is also symbolic of the American people, and i'm sure the Iraqis equate Christianity with Democracy.

2) Iraq has a divided people. Like Canada, the Iraqis are divided among two different ethnic peoples, the Iraqis in the South and the Kurds in the North. A study of Canadian history and politics will show that such a divide is very hard to deal with, perhaps resulting in political deadlocks that are very possible in a democracy. The kurds are trying hard to get an idependent nation, but Turkey is trying it's best to see that it doesn't happen because they too have a large Kurd population, near the Iraqi border. Also, there is the division among the Shi'ites and Sunnis which needs immediate attention. It will be difficult for a democracy to function with a hostile minority such as the sunni (consider any political difficulties with Catholic Quebecers and multiply by 10), who see the shi'ite as unfaithful muslims.

Just because democracy works in some places doesn't mean it will work in other places. For example, look at Congo or many other African nations. (especially north african countries with their Muslim populate).

Another point to consider:
I attended a panel recently discussing the war on Iraq. There were several panelists there including an Iraqi woman who came to Canada after the Gulf War. Her and her family have been Christians all their lives in Iraq. She said that while Sadam is an insane dictator and does not give the Iraqi people any freedom, he does not persecute Christians. Of course, he will take action against anybody who publicly comments against his regime, but, being a muslim in name only, he allows the Christian population to function and grow in Iraq. The only persecution Christians in Iraq suffer is very similar to the persecution that we here in North America might suffer: ridicule on the playground or workplace, etc. This woman was terrified of the possibility that a democracy would be put in place in Iraq, in fear that persecution of the Christians in Iraq (including many of her own family members) would begin.

hawkeye · Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 10:27 pm Post subject:

Extraneous Interference:

You commented in your previous post that Iraqis weren't used to voting. I would agree with you to a large degree, but disagree on part of it. Remember the presidential election back a while ago? Saddam won the election by a landslide 100%. The fact that everyone voted (even if by force) means they can do it. Yes, the election results and the fact Saddam had no opposition (because he made sure of that) are other issues, but the point is made Iraqis can learn to participate. However, no one will be forcing them post Saddam.

Yes, Iraq has differing groups of people with differing views, but doesn't the USA? I mean, there are the Democrats and the Republicans. Also, there is a second dimension to this here. The US has Liberals and Conservatives. True, Liberal closely corresponds to Democrate, and Conservative closely corresponds to Republican, but there is middle ground. The fact that people who bitterly disagree on whether an unborn child is a human and thus has the rights of humans or not is about as big of a deal as Shi'ites a Sunnis will have. Although, of course they would agree all life is created by God, and thus abortion is wrong except in rare extraneous cases.

There are actually two sides to Islam. One side is the peaceful side. These will only fight when they must--when they are threatened. The other side is more a fanatical view, and they will try to torment and terrorize anyone who doesn't agree with them. Osamma is the fanatical side. The fanatical side is a result of fanatics' view that the man made law overrules the Koran's laws, even though the man made law is based on the Koran. Then there is the more peaceful side. They see the Koran as overrulling any man made law. These Muslims are rather peaceful and realize they are decedants of Abraham, just as the Jews are, but they are decendants of Ishmael. Of course, there is division between these groups of Muslims i.e. the Sunni and Shi'ites, but that is minor in comparison.

extraneous interference · Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 10:38 pm Post subject: political culture

In my Intro. to Political Ideology class, my professor stressed the importance of political culture. Canada and the United States have long histories of democracy and understand their role as citizens in politics. Citizens have high expectations of government and expect the government to work for them. This culture does not come quickly, but evolves slowly, with roots in Great Britain, dating even as far back as 1215 with the Magna Carta.

Iraq, on the other hand, does not have the same supporting political culture. It is true that many nations have been able to make the transition to a democracy, but I do not believe the same is possible in Iraq, as i've said earlier. I believe Bush is naive in terms of his foreign policy and expectations of democracy in the Middle East. I've read that Bush expects Iraq to be a model of democracy in the Middle East, and that it may trigger the nations surrounding it to also make the transition to democracy. However, I believe this to be a ridiculously naive prediction.

hawkeye · Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 11:28 pm Post subject:

Well, perhapse. However, Russia is Democratic, and the influence is creeping into China.

Perhapse Bush is naive in his foreign relations, but he has his father to go to for advice, he has his administration, many of the members have years of foreign relations experience, and most importantly, he has God, who desinged foreign relations!

And you can bet Bush has been praying and reading his Bible, and Christians have been praying for Bush.

extraneous interference · Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 11:30 pm Post subject: re:

as my political science prof said (tongue in cheek), "you don't get much experience in international relations being the governor of Texas."

Jared · Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 11:58 pm Post subject:

Now this is an interesting debate...

And one I can really enjoy because I can understand and rather respect both sides of it.

I am not one who thinks of Islam as a peaceful religion. The grenades that rolled into the officer's tent of the 101st Airborne came out of the hand of a Muslim believing that he was acting for Allah. We're fighting against people believing that it's their job to stave off an invasion of Allah's land. We have people in our country who believe that Allah wants them to destroy our land.

At the supposed will of Allah, people fly planes into buildings. They use Ricin poisoning. They believe that Allah wants them to bring about the destruction if the infidels. Yes, I know it's not a peaceful religion.

Not every Muslim hates us... some Muslims are peaceful. But their religion is not.

Still, I believe Iraqi Muslims are capable of democracy. After seeing what dictatorship can do to a country and to a people, they desire nothing more. Islam is not condusive to democracy, but that does not mean that it is impossible for an Islamic country to form a democracy.

Turkey, for example, is an Islamic democracy. Do we always agree with Turkey? No. Right now, I'm rather mad at them. We're having problems with them. But, compare the sometimes-wrong democratic government of Turkey to the cruel government of Iraq...

Besides which, the Ottoman Empire was nowhere near as oppressive as is that of the Ba'ath party. When the Iraqi people emerge from this brutal dictatorship, they will pick those who will not lead them down that path again.

Bush is not naive. He's optimistic. Freedom and democracy can flourish anywhere that it is desired. If the people want democracy, it will thrive.

Also, if these people hate Christianity and by definition, the United States, then why are so many Iraqis rejoicing in cities we've taken away from Saddam's government? Certainly if they hated us so much, they wouldn't be dancing in the streets and inviting the troops to stay for dinner, right?

Yes, they're predominantly Muslim. But they've seen the harsh reality of dictatorship and don't want to live through it again. Naysayers have said that just about every free country would fail. I praise God that they were wrong...

And I pray that they are wrong once again.

WILL democracy flourish in Iraq? I think so. CAN it? Absolutely.

And finally, as to Christians and persecution in Iraq, it really depends on what's going on at the time. Saddam is basically an athiest, but if he's in need of support from other Arab governments, few of which hold him in high regard, he suddenly goes into mosque-building mode, begins making photos of him at his five daily prayers public, etc. And, when need be, he takes care of the "Christian problem." Are they persecuted daily? No... only when expedient.

It's a regime that has to end. Now.

smurfs · Guest

Im VERY VERY VERY suppized that Hussain got married!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hawkeye · Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2003 7:52 pm Post subject:

Why?
What father wouldn't offer his daughter to a future leader? Saddam is very good atpsycology, so he can make people think he is a good guy.

Saddam himself would marry because in the Mile East, it is assumed a man will marry.

Bennett Charles · Town Villain Joined: 24 Nov 2002 Posts: 2410

...or she was drunk when he proposed....