The Town Hall Archives

Jared · Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 8:04 pm Post subject: War with Iraq

Well, war talk is heating up. Finally.

Colin Powell made a convincing presentation to the U.N. Security Council yesterday, playing audio intercepts, showing satellite imagery, laying out intel data and showing powerful video ( http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77695,00.html ). Not that France will be convinced or anything, but the case is out there, the proof is on the table. If France and the U.N. refuse to see the facts, let them stay out. France is irrelevant and the United Nations is on the verge. If the UN wants to be the League of Nations II, let them. It's time for them to make a decision, and I'd say that the United States' position is already firm. We're going, with or without the U.N.

Finally! Bush has declared that "the game is over." ( http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77837,00.html ) And for Saddam, that game ends in... checkmate.

The 101st Airborn is getting ready to deploy. ( http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/06/sprj.irq.carrier.deployment/index.html ) That's major. It's war within weeks. Personally, I believe that the arial assult will begin in late February with ground troops going in at night on March 1st. A new moon is present on March 1st, I believe, and the night element is one the U.S. military is trained for and has equipment for, while the Iraqi military does not have night equipment of any magnitude.

The State Department is warning Americans abroad about potential terrorist attacks. ( http://www.msnbc.com/news/869630.asp?0cv=CA01 ) In other words, we're getting ready to go and are warning our people to be careful, because Iraq and its Al Qaeda friends could potentially retaliate. The warning level is up to number 4 (of 5), orange, a level it hasn't reached since September 10th, 2002. They fear that a major attack could be planned for within the week. I feel cautiously hopeful and optimistic that this attack is being headed off, but it bothers me greatly nonetheless. And some people said there was no connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda....

Even the Democrats are falling into line on the war issue, an amazing development. ( http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2003/02/05/national1718EST0769.DTL ) The usually-liberal Slate Magazine is lauding the Powell presentation. ( http://slate.msn.com/id/2078196/ ) Speaking of Slate, their political commentator, William Saletan, has been keeping a Saddameter, which measures how likely war is. Two months ago, it was in the 50 percent range. Today? A stunning 94 percent! ( http://slate.msn.com/id/2078229/ )

Even ultra-liberal columnists at the Washington Post are seeing the light, as Mary McGrory's "conversion" reveals. ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32573-2003Feb5.html ) The new evidence is overwhelming, and the so-called smoking guns seem to be everywhere... even on an issue that Democrats scoffed about for so long: a solid connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda has been made! ( http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=376141 )

At the National Review, they're piling on the articles ( http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins020603.asp & http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-babbin020603.asp & http://www.nationalreview.com/levin/levin020603.asp & http://www.nationalreview.com/frum/diary020603.asp & http://www.nationalreview.com/24feb03/editors022403a.asp ). War is now inevitable, in my opinion.

And sorely needed.

For those of you not convinced that this war is necessary, let me post a ten-point brief summary of why war is needed that I wrote for that dreaded other board, AI0 Digital, earlier today. It's quickly written and is by no means complete, but it should help to explain, I believe:

A BRIEF, TEN-POINT CASE FOR WAR

1. The Inspectors do NOT have to find anything... Iraq has to prove that it has destroyed what it has. The inspectors, under Resolution 1441, are supposed to be verifying that all was destroyed, not trying to find out if anything exists. They are playing hide-and-seek - and that's not their job.

2. We know that Iraq has developed chemical and biological weapons. They are not to try to prove that they haven't - we KNOW they have. We have absolute, undeniable proof of it. Satellite photos, defector's comments, former UN inspection team reports, intelligence data, etc., etc. The dossiers of information about Iraq doing things expressly forbidden by the treaty that ended the war in 1991 and by subsequent U.N. Resolutions is enormous. The idea here is for Iraq to renounce their evil and DESTROY everything, providing inspectors with proof of the destruction. Instead, they invite the inspectors to come over and play cat-and-mouse games. And sometimes I feel that the not-always-so-bright inspectors are the mouse being chased.

3. The inspectors were promised the right to interview Iraqi scientists outside of the country -- and their families had to be extracted for the interviews as well to get rid of the possibility of Iraq using the continued health and wellbeing of family members as a threat to the scientists being interviewed against them telling the truth about the weapons program. Iraq has since informed the U.N. that none of the 600 scientists that were promised to be made available were "interested in" being interviewed. When they finally allowed a few interviews, they were only granted inside Iraq and with the family members still in the country. Additionally, an Iraqi "minder" attended the interview. Let me ask you a question: you're being interviewed by a guy who's going to leave in twenty minutes. You're words are being listened to intently by a man from the government you expect to live under for all your life. Your family, not with you at this time, is under the control of that government and you have been warned that if you misspeak, your wife will be raped, then have acid poured over her, killing her. Your children will be tortured for weeks or months, then killed. Your aunts, uncles, parents and other relatives can expect imprisonment or death -- if you say a few wrong words to these inspectors. To keep this from happening, all you have to do is tell the inspectors that you're making asprin or bulldozing equipment or something. And everything will be alright. What would YOU do?

4. The United States has intercepted conversations in which superiors (Generals and the like) tell underlings (Colonals, Lieutenants, etc.) to "move" this, "hide" that or get something out of there before the inspectors arrive. One before and after - and in-between - set of satellite shots of a facility shows a busy area with lots of tents and a decontamination vehicle around (the decontam vehicle indicates the presense of dangerous chemical material inside). The next shot shows the same facilities, with military trucks all over the place. Shot three? The day the U.N. inspectors arrived. Not a tent in sight. The decontamination vehicle? Long gone. The buildings? Nearly empty. The people? Only half a dozen there instead of hundreds or more. The UN inspectors found nothing there. Hmm... I wonder if it went out a few days before in that huge convoy of military trucks moving out? The US has tons of evidence of things like this.

5. When the UN checks the hard drives of computers for data, they frequently find them to be almost empty for the computers of many scientists. EMPTY? These are scientists... there should be scientific work on them. But many times, they are almost completely empty. And they appear to be recently installed. A logical person would conclude that the original drives have been removed and replaced with new ones to cover up the data that used to be in them. Unfortunately, there are not logical minds in the U.N. Inspections team.

6. Saddam Hussein has made tons of threats against the United States and Great Britain and has vowed to unleash his weapons on us if we attack. His son Uday says they'll use the full power of their biological and chemical weaponry against us in any attack. Yes, this would be the same weaponry they claim that they don't have.

7. The United Nations KNOWS that Iraq possesses thousands of gallons each of anthrax, botchulism toxin, sarin, VX and dozens of other deadly agents. KNOWS. Absolute proof. What they don't know is what happened to them. Iraq says they've been gone since 1990, but there is proof of them existing as recent as 1999, after which they .... dissappear. So, what happened to them? This is just a wild guess, but maybe they HID them? Just perhaps?

8. Defectors have told of Iraq's various programs and 18 different former Iraqi scientists have talked about Iraq's mobile weapons labs that are inside of tractor-trailor trucks, railway cars and the like -- where inspectors can never look. Iraq is invading inspection. They're hiding something -- and we know exactly what it is.

9. Iraq repeatedly threatens us, Israel and its other enemies, and they've used their weapons before against their own people, against Iran and to a small degree, against us in 1990. We know they have the material and we know they hate us. We also know that they've violated treaty after treaty and could care less. They want us all dead.

10. There ARE ties between Al Qaeda and Iraq. Many AL Qaeda troops have been trained by Iraq's elite fighting force, the Republican National Gaurd. Many terrorist cells are in the country. And Al Qaeda has vowed to fight for Iraq... they work together. They have the same goal: to destroy the Western world. They are both terroristic threats.

Conclusion: it's time to take action, whether the U.N. says so or not. By their own laws and resolutions, war should have been started years ago, but the pacifist idiots in the organization (harsh words, but deserved) have held up this sadly necessary war for years, allowing things to get worse and worse. We're going to take on the Axis of Evil -- with or without the help of that so-called Axis of Weasel. We'd like all the support we can get, but when it comes right down to it, America can take Iraq without the support of the UN and anti-war western European countries. And if necessary, we will.

And we'll win.

On to Baghdad!

War isn't fun, isn't enjoyable, but in this case, it's extremely necessary and I want to see it get going now so we don't reap the disaster of not taking care of this sometime down the road.

[Yes, if you couldn't tell, I'm a news junkie. The mentioned articles cover just a fraction of my geopolitical reading today.]

The Top Crusader · Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 8:26 pm Post subject:

Well, I don't have time to read all that right now! But I am a Fox News junkie, so I probably know most of what you said, anyway.

And yes... war is okay by me. Kind of weird to see my reserve friends get called to action, though Confused

...

But it's all for the best.

Shouldn't there be an option about kissing Saddam on that poll somewhere?

Ferder- · Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 8:31 pm Post subject:

Hey! Jared, aren't you the one who kept pressuring me to unstickify my topic. Now you're stickying topics. Why does this particular one need to be stuck?

Jared · Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:48 pm Post subject:

Perhaps that was slightly hypocritical. My reasoning was that your thread was sticky for a long time, whereas I planned to pull this one from the sticky list in a day or two.

I thought it warranted attention because the topic is so urgent, in my opinion. But you're right: to some, Iraq is no more urgent than fictional characters in a fantasy book. They're crazy, but I can't help that.

I shouldn't have made this thread sticky and I'll resolve that right now. My apologies.

The Top Crusader · Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:58 pm Post subject:

Ah, well... I woulda made it a "sticky", myself... it IS actually something important being discussed for once.

Ferder- · Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 11:13 am Post subject:

Thank you, Jared. I just wasn't sure how long your topic was to be stuck

tim · Somewhat Aging Member Joined: 14 Jan 2003 Posts: 300

Great... more chest-beating anti-Iraq rhetoric. Don't believe everything the U.S. administration feeds you, kids. Take, for example, this recent story from the AP: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030214/ap_on_re_mi_ea/un_iraq_57

I think Blix made it extremely clear that Iraq has not breached the resolution, at least to his knowledge (and he is the most knowledgable on it since it is his job to execute it). Also, it was extraordinary that he basically called Colin Powell and the US government liars over the evidence presented to the UN last week.

And also, there are no apparent ties between Al'Qaeda and Saddam Hussein. Bin Laden does not believe Saddam to be a true Muslim, calling him and his government "socialists". The U.S. administration wants to make that connection only because they need an excuse to turn to Iraq - and that excuse is the "war on terror".

There are plenty of reasons for ousting Saddam, just like there are reasons to go to war against many other countries (some reasons better than others). Bush simply hasn't presented any valid reasons that justify going to war.

Jared · Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:11 pm Post subject:

hawkeye · Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:17 pm Post subject:

pianokitty · Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:27 pm Post subject:

I was very dissapointed when I saw that the majority was in favor of war. When September 11, 2001 occured i was shocked not only for the fact that it was right out of the blue and so devistating, but that i thought that the world was all at peace. I will never forget that fateful day, but i must say that if war would occur, the day that i read that in the newspaper would weigh more heavily on my heart than anything....not even September 11, or when I was put into the corner for the first time. War is more then just a symbol of wanting to fight for justice. It's killing lives that God has made. He made Osama bin Laden and Saddam and all the terrorists. I don't think that God wants us to go to war. I think that it is more a judgment for the United States turning away from Him.After hearing about the nuclear wapons, the threats, and all the stuff like that, I just want to say, "God, forgive us. Forgive us!"
More then anything, i must say that I was surprised. I think we all were, but I was surprised that it was happening in my lifetime. When I think of war, I think of my grandpa, or my great ancestors;I don't think of me. I don't think of me being alive at all. More or less, I think of myself as not even created yet!
I hope that, above all of your prayer requests, you pray for our country and our president who are about to go to war, or so the newspapers and TV sets tell us. So please, pray for the country.