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The Town Hall Archives Ahh, the nostalgia.
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*daniel I like pudding.

Joined: 22 Nov 2002 Posts: 594 Location: Toronto.
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Eugene Kendall™ wrote: | | ObiWan Kenobi Girl wrote: | | are you guys Catholic? | im not catholic |
I'm most certainly not Catholic. |
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Coralfish Town Hall Judge

Joined: 17 Dec 2002 Posts: 1790 Location: Southern Academia
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| *daniel wrote: | I, personally, am quite sick of the hooplah surrounding the John Paul's death. He was a man, and he died - that's a cause to mourn, because it speaks of sin and death, things that aren't supposed to happen - but at the end of the day, he was *essentially* no better than any other man, as good as he might have been *actually*.
If this doesn't make any sense to someone, I can define my terms  |
I'm not sure that I quite understand the point you are trying to make. Are you referring to the pope in particular, or anyone who is given a lot of public attention when they die?
Princess Diana's death was a massive media event, the death of Ronald Reagan recieved coverage, Kennedy's assasination is still of news intererest as was that of any significant political figure following the advent of mass media. Would you have been similarily tired of such coverage?
I agree with you that John Paul II was a man, and yes, he shouldn't be elevated to anything more than that, but I take issue when you say that he isn't any "better". Do you mean that in the sense of being "more" than other people, or in the sense his having led a life no different in significance from, say, a grocer or a stockbroker? If the latter, I would have to vehemently disagree.
In any event, people of prominence are often covered by the media. Death is no exeption. Because of the nature of the pope's position in the world, this certainly shouldn't be suprising. I suppose I'm merely confused as to why people would be "tired" of hearing such a thing. Life, especially a life that has had a profound influence in the world for good, should be celebrated.
Shouldn't we all take the opportunity to influence the world for the good as much as we can? And why should we be annoyed when a man who has done so has been given the attention? Perhaps, for once, the world will turn its head and give credence to the power of the good that one person can accomplish. |
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*daniel I like pudding.

Joined: 22 Nov 2002 Posts: 594 Location: Toronto.
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Coralfish wrote: | | *daniel wrote: | I, personally, am quite sick of the hooplah surrounding the John Paul's death. He was a man, and he died - that's a cause to mourn, because it speaks of sin and death, things that aren't supposed to happen - but at the end of the day, he was *essentially* no better than any other man, as good as he might have been *actually*.
If this doesn't make any sense to someone, I can define my terms  |
I agree with you that John Paul II was a man, and yes, he shouldn't be elevated to anything more than that, but I take issue when you say that he isn't any "better". Do you mean that in the sense of being "more" than other people, or in the sense his having led a life no different in significance from, say, a grocer or a stockbroker? If the latter, I would have to vehemently disagree. |
Ah, this is why I should have defined my terms :)
The pope, as a man (and, as far as I can tell, a man who followed a false creed), is no better than any other man in his essence. I mean, he's doomed, like everyone in their natural state, to hell.
On the other hand, he did a lot of good things. Just like Ghandi. Just like Princess Di. Was he a good man? In that sense, yes. Maybe a "better" man would be the best term. Was he a great man? Arguable, but probably.
What I'm really sick of is Christians acting like he was a great ambassador for Christ, when while we grieve at his passing yes, we also have to candidly admit he was leader of the Church of Rome, a church that pursues another gospel, another agenda, and ultimately another god. |
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GusDeHaan The TH. Inspector and etc.

Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 763 Location: Im so bright You need sunglasses.
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| *daniel wrote: |
Ah, this is why I should have defined my terms :)
The pope, as a man (and, as far as I can tell, a man who followed a false creed), is no better than any other man in his essence. I mean, he's doomed, like everyone in their natural state, to hell.
On the other hand, he did a lot of good things. Just like Ghandi. Just like Princess Di. Was he a good man? In that sense, yes. Maybe a "better" man would be the best term. Was he a great man? Arguable, but probably.
What I'm really sick of is Christians acting like he was a great ambassador for Christ, when while we grieve at his passing yes, we also have to candidly admit he was leader of the Church of Rome, a church that pursues another gospel, another agenda, and ultimately another god. |
I still can't post my responses - but I'd agree with Dan here - perhaps I agree because it was my original thoughts, that I just couldn't put down.. Or maybe as luck would have it, I use this to cover up my broken promise. |
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*daniel I like pudding.

Joined: 22 Nov 2002 Posts: 594 Location: Toronto.
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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I found this article on another site that I visit, and I thought it was seasoned with salt.
John Paul II - The Man and His Legacy
4/4/2005
Albert Mohler
The death of Pope John Paul II brings one of the Roman Catholic Church's longest papal reigns to an end and closes the last chapter on one of the most significant lives of our times. By any measure, John Paul II was one of the most influential figures on the world scene, leading over a billion Roman Catholics worldwide and exercising a significant influence on world affairs during some of the most tumultuous decades of the 20th century.
Inevitably, his death raises fundamental questions about how evangelical Christians should understand the papacy itself, as well as those who hold the papal office. Given the low level of theological knowledge and the high emotionalism of the era, many evangelicals appear confused when confronted with an event like the death of a pope. Furthermore, evangelicals are more likely to have been aware of this pope in contrast with those who held the office in the past. In this age of mass communications and media, John Paul II has been one of the most publicized, televised, and celebrated public figures of our age.
For evangelicals, the crucial question comes with the institution of the papacy itself. After all, the Reformation of the 16th century required a rejection of papal power and authority, and the Reformers soon came to understand the papacy as an unbiblical office that inevitably compromised the authority and sufficiency of scripture. Over time, the heirs of the Reformers came to understand that the papacy is a fundamentally unbiblical office that posits an earthly monarch as the earthly head of the church. Furthermore, this office is then invested with claims to spiritual and temporal power that are combined with claims of apostolic succession and serve as foundational pillars for the comprehensive claims of the Roman Catholic Church.
The Protestant rejection of the papacy was no small matter, though some liberal Protestants and careless evangelicals seem to have forgotten why. Beyond this, the papacy is inextricably linked to the structure of Catholic theology and the superstructure of truth claims, practices, and doctrines that constitute Catholicism. Evangelical Christians simply cannot accept the legitimacy of the papacy and must resist and reject claims of papal authority. To do otherwise would be to compromise biblical truth and reverse the Reformation. With the death of John Paul II, evangelicals are confronted with a sensitive question: Can we recognize genuine virtues in a man who for over a quarter of a century held an office we must expressly reject?
We should be unembarrassed and unhesitant to declare our admiration for John Paul II's courageous stand against Communism, his bold defense of human dignity and human life, and his robust and substantial defense of truth in the face of postmodernism. In many of the great battles of our day, evangelicals found John Paul II to be a key ally. This was especially true with the crucial issues of abortion and euthanasia. With bold strokes and a clear voice, this pope defended human life from the moment of conception until natural death. In his encyclical, Evangelium Vitae (1995), he argued for an implacable opposition to what he called the "culture of death"--an age that would increasingly embrace death rather than life and forfeit human dignity on the altar of human autonomy and individual rights.
In Veritatis Splendor (1993), John Paul argued that the modern concept of freedom as unrestrained human liberty would lead to the destruction of Christian ethics and the undermining of all authority. In this powerful statement, the pope defended the very nature of truth against postmodern denials and a culture increasingly attracted to moral relativism.
The legacy of this pope cannot be separated from the facts of his life. Born May 18, 1920 in Wadowice, just south of Krakow in Poland, Karol Wojtyla would come to adulthood in the context of Communist oppression. Throughout his life, he would identify himself as a Pole and a Slav, and the twists and turns of his biography would become a focus of world attention.
Trained as an actor, Karol Wojtyla would later decide to enter the priesthood, following a calling that brought great respect in his native Poland. With remarkable speed, Father Wojtyla moved into the hierarchy of the church. He was consecrated a bishop in 1958--just 12 years after entering the priesthood. In 1964, he was installed as Archbishop of Krakow, and just three years later he was created a cardinal by Pope Paul VI.
Long before he became a cardinal of the church, Karol Wojtyla had attracted the attention of the Vatican. He had studied in Rome and had developed a reputation in the academic circles of the church. Theologically, he was seen as a progressive, and he took an active part in the Second Vatican Council, called into session by Pope John XXIII.
When Pope Paul VI died at Castel Gandolfo on August 6, 1978, Cardinal Wojtyla was already discussed as a potential successor. Nevertheless, when the College of Cardinals elected Albino Luciani on August 25, 1978, it looked as if Cardinal Wojtyla had lost his chance to become pope.
All this changed on September 28, 1978, when Cardinal Luciani--now Pope John Paul I--died in his sleep during the night, barely a month after his election as pope.
The election of Karol Wojtyla as pope came on October 16, 1978, and he immediately announced that he would take the name "John Paul II" as a way of honoring his immediate predecessor. Nevertheless, it was clear that this new pope would take the papacy and the Roman Catholic Church firmly in hand.
In his early years, this Polish pope was known by millions of persons around the globe, primarily as a man who opposed Communist tyranny with personal courage and the weight of his papal office. John Paul II was the first non-Italian pope since 1522, and the historical importance of his election became clear as he used the full influence of his papal office to encourage the Solidarity movement in his native Poland.
Along with President Ronald W. Reagan and British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, Pope John Paul II saw Communism as an assault upon human dignity and the human spirit. Like Ronald Reagan, John Paul II grew in international stature after surviving an assassination attempt. In the case of John Paul II, the 1981 assassination attempt that nearly took his life was organized by the Bulgarian secret police, presumably under orders from the KGB in the Soviet Union.
Evangelical Christians should honor the courage of this man and his historic role in bringing Communist tyranny to an end--at least within the Soviet Union and in Eastern Europe. Added to this, we should honor his defense of human dignity and his eloquent and influential witness against abortion and the Culture of Death.
Even so, we must also recognize that John Paul II also represented the most troubling aspects of Roman Catholicism. He defended and continued the theological directions set loose at the Second Vatican Council. Even as he consolidated authority in the Vatican and disciplined wayward priests and theologians, he never confronted the most pressing issues of evangelical concern.
Even in his most recent book, released in the United States just days before his death, John Paul II continued to define the work of Christ as that which is added to human effort. Like the church he served, John Paul II rejected justification by faith. Beyond this, he rejected the biblical doctrine of hell, embraced inclusivism, and promoted an extreme form of Marian devotion, referring to Mary as "Co-Redemptrix," "Mediatrix," and "Mother of all Graces."
In the end, evangelicals should be thankful for the personal virtues Pope John Paul II demonstrated, and for his advocacy on behalf of life, liberty, and human dignity. Yet we cannot ignore the institution of the papacy itself, nor the complex of doctrines, truth claims, and false doctrines that John Paul II taught, defended, and promulgated. As Roman Catholics mourn the passing of the pope, we should take care to respond with both compassion and conviction, fulfilling our own responsibility to take the measure of this man and his legacy.
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R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. For more articles and resources by Dr. Mohler, and for information on The Albert Mohler Program, a daily national radio program broadcast on the Salem Radio Network, go to www.albertmohler.com. For information on The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, go to www.sbts.edu. Send feedback to mail@albertmohler.com. |
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Jonathan Dungeon Master

Joined: 21 Oct 2004 Posts: 2254 Location: Minnesota and/or North Dakota
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:30 am Post subject: |
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^First, I like Albert Moeller, and listen to him on the radio from time to time.^
Second, it's been what, a week and a half since John Paul II died, and we have this:
VATICAN CITY (April 12) - After absorbing the blow of Sept. 11, some Roman Catholic cardinals in Europe want to enlist Muslims as future allies against a challenge confronting both their religions -- the godless nature of modern life.
Church leaders, now in Rome to elect a successor to Pope John Paul, initially echoed widespread concerns about militant Islam after the 2001 attacks, and sometimes depicted the faith as a spiritual rival the next pope must be able to stand up to.
But now some cardinals, including several seen as possible popes, are stressing the need to work with, not against, what is the second religion in much of Europe. They also see this as a contribution to peace both at home and in the Islamic world.
"Christians and Muslims who live together should try to meet and dialogue to refute the talk about a clash of civilizations," Milan Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi said recently, urging Italians to get to know the Muslims in their midst.
This was all the more urgent because faith itself was under siege, said Brussels Cardinal Godfried Danneels. Many church pews are empty in Europe as people turn to spiritual fads, secularism or simple indifference to religion altogether.
"There is only one important thing in the Church and in the world, that's to keep alive the idea of God and the spiritual nature of the human being and the world," he said last week.
CATHOLIC-MUSLIM ALTER EGOS
Europe, Christianity's heartland, is now home to about 15 million Muslims whose very public loyalty to their faith makes Catholic leaders envious. The rise of militant Islam has added a suspicion and fear of Muslims that strains everyday relations.
But Venice Cardinal Angelo Scola, who has just launched a magazine about Christian-Muslim understanding, sees Europe as the region where the two religions that have clashed since the Crusades will finally come to know and appreciate each other.
"The challenge of dealing with Islam will be played out in Europe," he said last month. "This is part of the mixing of civilisations. We have to join this process and accompany it."
Pope John Paul himself pioneered more open relations with Islam by visiting a Damascus mosque in 2001.
London Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor said that there was little opportunity for such dialogue in predominantly Muslim countries.
He hoped dialogue in the West would "increase and make inroads" in Islamic countries.
This forward-looking view is not unanimous. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, John Paul's doctrinal watchdog, last year rejected the idea of Turkey joining the European Union by saying Islam was a separate culture and Ankara should work more with Arabs.
"It's very common in Italy for the clergy to quote Oriana Fallaci," said Father Daniel Madigan, Islam expert at Rome's Pontifical Gregorian University, referring to the Italian author of best-selling books slamming Islam and Arab countries.
But Dalil Boubakeur, head of the French Muslim Council (CFCM) representing Europe's largest Islamic minority, said the more conciliatory view was spreading among Church leaders.
"We see more goodwill and friendship between the Church and Islam," he said by telephone from Paris.
However, prelates trying to defend the Church against the rise of esoteric sects and religious indifference have realised that many moderate Muslim leaders have the same goal, he said.
"These men of the Church see the men of Islam as alter egos," said Boubakeur, who is also rector of the Paris Grand Mosque. "Islam and the Church find themselves both defending faith, holiness, traditions and respect for structures."
Slightly discouraging, imo.
-Jonathan |
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*daniel I like pudding.

Joined: 22 Nov 2002 Posts: 594 Location: Toronto.
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:43 am Post subject: |
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This isn't the first time the Catholic church has tried for this sort of "understanding and acceptance" - just they used to do it by synchronism and combining elements of Christianity with native practices and such.
For exibit a, I present for you Latin America, where Catholic belief are so far from orthodoxy that it's almost silly sometimes - and a lot of this non-orthodoxy stemming from early attempts to make Catholicism more "palatible" to those people. |
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