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Christian Cowgirl
Doesn't Post Enough to Get a Cool Status

Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 594

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:03 pm Post subject:

Never fear I shall return. Just need to check out a few things...

Christian Cowgirl
Doesn't Post Enough to Get a Cool Status

Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 594

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:03 pm Post subject:

pulls up chair and plunges 2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: Ok, these verses say that someone had heard the truth that they could be saved. In the next verse God sends a strong delusion on them so they believe a lie. Obviously theses people are unsaved and stay in that lost condition, "them that perish" "they should believe a lie". I believe this to be talking about the unbelievers left after the rapture takes place. The "iota" of scriptural support Jared asked for. Revelation 14:3-4 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. The hundred and forty and four thousand are all young guys, "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins." If God placed a strong delusion on the ones left after the rapture, this would be that second generation with the God shaped vacuum inside, searching for truth. Now if I'm wrong and the verses are speaking of people during the Tribulation why did God put this strong delusion on them? Do they only have one chance to hear the truth and if they don't believe thats it?

Jonathan
Dungeon Master

Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 2254
Location: Minnesota and/or North Dakota

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:52 pm Post subject:

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

*pulls up chair and plunges*

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Ok, these verses say that someone had heard the truth that they could be saved. In the next verse God sends a strong delusion on them so they believe a lie. Obviously theses people are unsaved and stay in that lost condition, "them that perish" "they should believe a lie". I believe this to be talking about the unbelievers left after the rapture takes place. The "iota" of scriptural support Jared asked for.

Except we've been over this "iota" several times already and you are taking it out of context. Read the many verses leading up to that, it is speaking of the AntiChrist. As was posted earlier:

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:12

First, that still doesn't say anything about a 'whole generation'. Second, I believe you are presenting that out of context. That verse is referring to AnitChrist's followers:

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 NIV

8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and iin every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused ot love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The only way this could be talking about the 'generation' you spoke of is if AntiChrist is in power for that duration, which we know from Revelation won't happen. You might be right, since we don't know how much time will pass, but the Bible doesn't back it up.

-Jonathan[/quote]

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

Now if I'm wrong and the verses are speaking of people during the Tribulation why did God put this strong delusion on them? Do they only have one chance to hear the truth and if they don't believe thats it?

It's saying that those who will follow AntiChrist will perish.

-Jonathan

Christian Cowgirl
Doesn't Post Enough to Get a Cool Status

Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 594

Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:35 am Post subject:

Jonathan wrote:

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

Except we've been over this "iota" several times already and you are taking it out of context. Read the many verses leading up to that, it is speaking of the AntiChrist.

Actually my iota was these verses: Revelation 14:3-4 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Jonathan wrote:

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:12

Its not talking about the AntiChrist, its talking about the false prophet: "the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders" Look in Revelation, the false prophet is going to be doing those miracles, signs, and wonders.

Jonathan wrote:

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

It's saying that those who will follow AntiChrist will perish.

-Jonathan

Now I could believe they way you do... but the thing that stood out to me was, why did God put this strong delusion on those who already have the mark of the beast, who are already dammed anyway?

GusDeHaan
The TH. Inspector and etc.

Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 763
Location: Im so bright You need sunglasses.

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:29 am Post subject:

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

Now I could believe they way you do... but the thing that stood out to me was, why did God put this strong delusion on those who already have the mark of the beast, who are already dammed anyway?

Um, because that is how it works, when you are in sin, and damned, you cannot see what is true and right. You have your heart hardened towards the gospel. How come the Jews didn't accept Christ when he was STANDING IN FRONT OF THEM ? / - Ask God -

Matt Henry wrote:

Verses 5-12 Something hindered or withheld the man of sin. It is supposed to be the power of the Roman empire, which the apostle did not mention more plainly at that time. Corruption of doctrine and worship came in by degrees, and the usurping of power was gradual; thus the mystery of iniquity prevailed. Superstition and idolatry were advanced by pretended devotion, and bigotry and persecution were promoted by pretended zeal for God and his glory. This mystery of iniquity was even then begun; while the apostles were yet living, persons pretended zeal for Christ, but really opposed him. The fall or ruin of the antichristian state is declared. The pure word of God, with the Spirit of God, will discover this mystery of iniquity, and in due time it shall be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming. Signs and wonders, visions and miracles, are pretended; but they are false signs to support false doctrines; and lying wonders, or only pretended miracles, to cheat the people; and the diabolical deceits with which the antichristian state has been supported, are notorious. The persons are described, who are his willing subjects. Their sin is this; They did not love the truth, and therefore did not believe it; and they were pleased with false notions. God leaves them to themselves, then sin will follow of course, and spiritual judgments here, and eternal punishments hereafter. These prophecies have, in a great measure, come to pass, and confirm the truth of the Scriptures. This passage exactly agrees with the system of popery, as it prevails in the Romish church, and under the Romish popes. But though the son of perdition has been revealed, though he has opposed and exalted himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; and has spoken and acted as if he were a god upon earth, and has proclaimed his insolent pride, and supported his delusions, by lying miracles and all kinds of frauds; still the Lord has not yet fully destroyed him with the brightness of his coming; that and other prophecies remain to be fulfilled before the end shall come.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown wrote:

8. Translate, "the lawless one"; the embodiment of all the godless "lawlessness" which has been working in "mystery" for ages (2Th 2:7): "the man of sin" (2Th 2:3).
whom the Lord--Some of the oldest manuscripts read, "the Lord Jesus." How awful that He whose very name means God-Saviour, should appear as the Destroyer; but the salvation of the Church requires the destruction of her foe. As the reign of Israel in Canaan was ushered in by judgments on the nations for apostasy (for the Canaanites were originally worshippers of the true God: thus Melchisedek, king of Salem, was the "priest of the most high God," Ge 14:18: Ammon and Moab came from righteous Lot), so the Son of David's reign in Zion and over the whole earth, is to be ushered in by judgments on the apostate Christian world.
consume . . . and . . . destroy--So Da 7:26, "consume and destroy"; Da 11:45. He shall "consume" him by His mere breath (Isa 11:4; 30:33): the sentence of judgment being the sharp sword that goeth out of His mouth (Re 19:15, 21). Antichrist's manifestation and destruction are declared in the same breath; at his greatest height he is nearest his fall, like Herod his type (Isa 1:24-27; Ac 12:20-23). As the advancing fire, while still at a distance consumes little insects [CHRYSOSTOM] by its mere heat, so Christ's mere approach is enough to consume Antichrist. The mere "appearance of the coming" of the Lord of glory is sufficient to show to Antichrist his perfect nothingness. He is seized and "cast alive into the take of fire" (Re 19:20). So the world kingdoms, and the kingdom of the beast, give place to that of the Son of man and His saints. The Greek for "destroy" means "abolish" (the same Greek is so translated, 2Ti 1:10); that is, cause every vestige of him to disappear. Compare as to Gog attacking Israel and destroyed by Jehovah (Eze 38:1-39:29), so as not to leave a vestige of him.
with the brightness of his coming--Greek, "the manifestation, (or appearance) of His presence": the first outburst of His advent--the first gleam of His presence--is enough to abolish utterly all traces of Antichrist, as darkness disappears before the dawning day. Next, his adherents are "slain with the sword out of His mouth" (Re 19:21). BENGEL'S distinction between "the appearance of His coming" and the "coming" itself is not justified by 1Ti 6:14; 2Ti 1:10; 4:1, 8; Tit 2:13, where the same Greek for "appearing" (English Version, here "the brightness") plainly refers to the coming itself. The expression, "manifestation (appearing) of His presence," is used in awful contrast to the revelation of the wicked one in the beginning of the verse.

9. whose coming--The same Greek as was used for the Lord's coming (2Th 2:8) or personal "presence."
is--in its essential character.
after--according to the working ("energy") of Satan, as opposed to the energy or working of the Holy Spirit in the Church (see on Eph 1:19). As Christ is related to God, so is Antichrist to Satan, his visible embodiment and manifestation: Satan works through him. Re 13:2, "The dragon gave him (the beast) his power . . . seat . . . great authority."
lying wonders--literally, "wonders" or "prodigies of falsehood." His "power, signs, and wonders," all have falsehood for their base, essence, and aim (Joh 8:44), [ALFORD]. In Mt 24:24 Jesus implies that the miracles shall be real, though demoniac, such mysterious effects of the powers of darkness as we read of in the case of the Egyptian sorcerers, not such as Jesus performed in their character, power, or aim; for they are against the revealed Word, and therefore not to be accepted as evidences of truth; nay, on the authority of that sure Word of prophecy (here, and Mt 24:24), to be known and rejected as wrought in support of falsehood (De 13:1-3, 5; Ga 1:8, 9; Re 13:11-15; 19:20). The same three Greek words occur for miracles of Jesus (Ac 2:22; Heb 2:4); showing that as the Egyptian magicians imitated Moses (2Ti 3:1-8), so Antichrist will try to imitate Christ's works as a "sign," or proof of divinity.

10. deceivableness--rather as Greek, "deceit of (to promote) unrighteousness" (2Th 2:12).
in--The oldest manuscripts and versions omit "in." Translate, "unto them that are perishing" (2Co 2:15, 16; 4:3): the victims of him whose very name describes his perishing nature, "the son of perdition"; in contrast to you whom (2Th 2:13) "God hath from the beginning chosen to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."
because--literally, "in requital for"; in just retribution for their having no love for the truth which was within their reach (on account of its putting a check on their bad passions), and for their having "pleasure in unrighteousness" (2Th 2:12; Ro 1:18); they are lost because they loved not, but rejected, the truth which would have saved them.
received not--Greek, "welcomed not"; admitted it not cordially.
love of the truth--not merely love of truth, but love of THE truth (and of, Jesus who is the Truth, in opposition to Satan's "lie," 2Th 2:9, 11; Joh 8:42-44), can save (Eph 4:21). We are required not merely to assent to, but to love the truth (Ps 119:97). The Jews rejected Him who came in His divine Father's name; they will receive Antichrist coming in his own name (Joh 5:43). Their pleasant sin shall prove their terrible scourge.

11. for this cause--because "they received not the love of the truth." The best safeguard against error is "the love of the truth."
shall send--Greek, "sends," or "is sending"; the "delusion" is already beginning. God judicially sends hardness of heart on those who have rejected the truth, and gives them up in righteous judgment to Satan's delusions (Isa 6:9, 10; Ro 1:24-26, 28). They first cast off the love of the truth, then God gives them up to Satan's delusions, then they settle down into "believing the lie": an awful climax (1Ki 22:22, 23; Eze 14:9; Job 12:16; Mt 24:5, 11; 1Ti 4:1).
strong delusion--Greek, "the powerful working of error," answering to the energizing "working of Satan" (2Th 2:9); the same expression as is applied to the Holy Ghost's operation in believers: "powerful" or "effectual (energizing) working" (Eph 1:19).
believe a lie--rather, "the lie" which Antichrist tells them, appealing to his miracles as proofs of it . . . (2Th 2:9).

12. they all . . . damned--rather as Greek, "that all," &c. He here states the general proposition which applies specially to Antichrist's adherents. Not all in the Church of Rome, or other anti-Christian systems, shall be damned, but only "all who believed not the truth," when offered to them, "but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (Ro 1:32; 2:8). Love of unrighteousness being the great obstacle to believing the truth.

13. But--In delightful contrast to the damnation of the lost (2Th 2:12) stands the "salvation" of Paul's converts.
are bound--in duty (2Th 1:3).
thanks . . . to God--not to ourselves, your ministers, nor to you, our converts.
beloved of the Lord--Jesus (Ro 8:37; Ga 2:20; Eph 5:2, 25). Elsewhere God the Father is said to love us (2Th 2:16; Joh 3:16; Eph 2:4; Col 3:12). Therefore Jesus and the Father are one.
from the beginning--"before the foundation of the world" (Eph 1:4; compare 1Co 2:7; 2Ti 1:9); in contrast to those that shall "worship the beast, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Re 13:8). Some of the oldest manuscripts read as English Version, but other oldest manuscripts and Vulgate read, "as first-fruits." The Thessalonians were among the first converts in Europe (compare Ro 16:5; 1Co 16:15). In a more general sense, it occurs in Jas 1:18; Re 14:4; so I understand it here including the more restricted sense.
chosen you--The Greek, is not the ordinary word for "elected," implying His eternal selection; but taken for Himself, implying His having adopted them in His eternal purpose. It is found in the Septuagint (De 7:7; 10:15).
through--rather as Greek, "in sanctification" as the element in which the choice to salvation had place (compare 1Pe 1:2), standing in contrast to the "unrighteousness," the element in which Antichrist's followers are given over by God to damnation (2Th 2:12).
of the Spirit--wrought by the Spirit who sanctifies all the elect people of God, first by eternally consecrating them to perfect holiness in Christ, once for all, next by progressively imparting it.
belief of the truth--contrasted with "believed not the truth" (2Th 2:12).

Christian Cowgirl
Doesn't Post Enough to Get a Cool Status

Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 594

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:24 am Post subject:

GusDeHaan wrote:

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

Now I could believe they way you do... but the thing that stood out to me was, why did God put this strong delusion on those who already have the mark of the beast, who are already dammed anyway?

Um, because that is how it works, when you are in sin, and damned, you cannot see what is true and right. You have your heart hardened towards the gospel.

If we're talking about right now... Even if a person is unsaved, in sin, and headed towards hell, God doesn't place a delusion on them that they might never be saved. If He did, why should we bother witnessing?? For that matter no one would be able to be saved because we all begin in sin, lost.

If you're talking about during the tribulation... I still don't understand why God would place a delusion on them, why would the last angel at the very end of the Trib bother to bring his message of Gods truth? If theres a delusion on them they couldn't believe anyway.

Disco Dan
Scholarly Artist

Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 3723
Location: In the land of Deep but not Profound...

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:35 pm Post subject:

It's simply Biblical that there would be people accepting Christ during the tribulation. If there wasn't, who do you expect we would rule over for that set time when God creates the new Earth? Do you suspect he'd create new humans as well?

GusDeHaan
The TH. Inspector and etc.

Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 763
Location: Im so bright You need sunglasses.

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:07 pm Post subject:

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

If someone is unsaved in sin and headed towards hell they need to know the message , because only after knowing the gospel message will they be able to see the gospel, but if they reject the gospel they have sealed their fate, in which case we have eliminated the theory that God cannot harden someones heart, and proven that only through the holy spirit GIVEN by God, can change a man. And your right, if God hardened everyone's heart there wouldn't be a reason to witness, Except for the fact that God only hardends certain people's hearts, and that scripture tells us to witness so that others may be won over by our actions...

God = allows sin to occur and not all men will be saved.

http://www.carm.org/uni/allmensaved.htm

Or, read Romans 11 in particular verse 8 ,

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=48

Just in case you don't want to go sorting through, here is the "quote"

" 8according as it is written: "God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day." "

Uh some points pulled from the Heilderburg Chatechism, with scripture proofs.

Question 8. Are we then so corrupt that we are wholly incapable of doing any good, and inclined to all wickedness?

Answer: Indeed we are; (a) except we are regenerated by the Spirit of God. (b)

(a) Gen.8:21 The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Gen.6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Job 15:16 How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water? Job 15:35 They conceive mischief, and bring forth vanity, and their belly prepareth deceit. Isa.53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (b) John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 1 Cor.12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 2 Cor.3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

Question 9. Does not God then do injustice to man, by requiring from him in his law, that which he cannot perform?

Answer: Not at all; (a) for God made man capable of performing it; but man, by the instigation of the devil, (b) and his own wilful disobedience, (c) deprived himself and all his posterity of those divine gifts.

(a) Eph.4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Eccl.7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. (b) John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 2 Cor.11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. Gen.3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (c) Gen.3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Rom.5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Gen.3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 1 Tim.2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 1 Tim.2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Question 87. Cannot they then be saved, who, continuing in their wicked and ungrateful lives, are not converted to God?

Answer: By no means; for the holy scripture declares that no unchaste person, idolater, adulterer, thief, covetous man, drunkard, slanderer, robber, or any such like, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (a)

(a) 1 Cor.6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1 Cor.6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. Eph.5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Eph.5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Christian Cowgirl
Doesn't Post Enough to Get a Cool Status

Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 594

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:52 pm Post subject:

GusDeHaan wrote:

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

Um, this debate isn't about God hardening hearts right now. Start a new thread.

Eugene Blackgaard wrote:

It's simply Biblical that there would be people accepting Christ during the tribulation. If there wasn't, who do you expect we would rule over for that set time when God creates the new Earth? Do you suspect he'd create new humans as well?

You must have failed to read the preceding posts. I didn't say no one would come to Christ during the trib. You're right many will. The issue here is, will the unbelievers left after the rapture get a second chance for salvation? I believe not, because God will place on them a strong delusion that they should believe a lie.

As long as it was brought up... I don't believe we will be on earth during the 1,000 year reign of Christ but that we will be in heaven.

Disco Dan
Scholarly Artist

Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 3723
Location: In the land of Deep but not Profound...

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:54 pm Post subject:

Who said I was adressing you? It was just another thought to add to the discussion.

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