The Town Hall Archives Ahh, the nostalgia.     Search   Memberlist   Log in  Harry Potter      The Town Hall Forum Index -> Impolite Company Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 10, 11, 12, 13  Next View previous topic :: View next topic   Harry Potter good-bad Good  25%  [ 10 ] Neutral  17%  [ 7 ] Bad  56%  [ 22 ] Total Votes : 39 Author Message dawningoftime Child's Portion Diet Mini Cheeseburger Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 99 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:50 pm    Post subject: The problem I have is that a lot of people who rant against the books haven't read them. I chose to withhold judgement of the books until I read them and after I read them thought they weren't that bad. People don't have problems with fairytales yet they have a problem with Harry Potter? There's a disconnect for me. Jonathan Dungeon Master Joined: 21 Oct 2004 Posts: 2254 Location: Minnesota and/or North Dakota Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:04 pm    Post subject: -Mellow boy wrote: well it just seems to me that when this topic comes up people say "it says in the Bible that Magic is bad so enough said!" but then if i say oh what about this book or such in such why dont you think thats bad? there be like "just cause" well you just said that all magic is bad pereid so why do you read or watch those things? it cunfuses me. You have a point. However, I think we need to look at the context more than anything. CON for example, is an allegory. Does that excuse the fact that CS Lewis includes 'magic' in the books? Also, as far as I know, magic is condemned (someone correct me if I'm wrong). -Jonathan Amadeo Senior Member Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 1207 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:23 pm    Post subject: dawningoftime wrote: The problem I have is that a lot of people who rant against the books haven't read them. I chose to withhold judgement of the books until I read them and after I read them thought they weren't that bad. People don't have problems with fairytales yet they have a problem with Harry Potter? There's a disconnect for me. How bad does something have to be before you will condemn without viewing? Continental Admiral Ornery Member Joined: 14 Nov 2003 Posts: 867 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:33 pm    Post subject: dawningoftime wrote: The problem I have is that a lot of people who rant against the books haven't read them. I chose to withhold judgement of the books until I read them and after I read them thought they weren't that bad. People don't have problems with fairytales yet they have a problem with Harry Potter? There's a disconnect for me. I've always pondered that as well, but then comes the question: Should I go look at pornography and then judge it? I know I'm going on, what some would say, an extreme line but while we're discussing books and such, I thought I'd offer that question. dawningoftime Child's Portion Diet Mini Cheeseburger Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 99 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:18 pm    Post subject: Here are words from Professor Tolkien that may add to this disccussion. This is from a letter he wrote to Milton Waldman. Sorry about the length Quote: Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religous truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world (I am speaking of course, of our present situation, not of ancient pagan, pre-Christian days....) I dislike Allegory- the concious and intentional allegory- yet any attempt to explain the purport of myth or fairytale must use allegorical language. (And of course, the more life a story has the more readily will it be susceptible of allegorical interpretations: while the better a deliberate allegory is made the more nearly will it be acceptable just as a story.) Anyway all this stuff is mainly concerned with Fall, Mortality and the Machine. With Fall inevitably, and that motive occurs in several modes. With Mortality, especially as it affects art and the creative (or as I should say, sub-creative) desire which seems to have no biological function , and to be apart from the satisfaction of plain ordinary biological life, with which, in our world, it is indeed unusually at strife. This desire is at once wedded to a passionate love of the real primary world, and hence filled with the sense of mortality, and yet unsatisfied by it. It has various opportunities of 'Fall'. It may become possessive, clinging to the things made his own, the sub-creator wishes to be Lord and God of his private creation. He will rebel against the laws of the Creator - especially to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective - and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I ined all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of developements of the inherent inner powers or talents or even the use of these talents with the corrupted motive of dominating: bulldozing the real world, or coercing other wills. The Machine is or more obvious.modern form though more closely related to Magic than is usually recognised. I have not used 'magic' consistantly, and indeed the Elven queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits in their confused use of of the word both for the divices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the latter (since all human stories have suffered the same confusion). But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitation: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence), And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous reforming of Creaton. The 'Elves' are 'immortal', at least as far as this world goes: and hence are concerned rather with the griefs and burdens of deathlessness in time and change, than with death. The Enemy in succssive forms is alwasy 'naturally' concerned with shere Domination, and so the Lord of magic and machines; but the problems: that this frightful evil can and does arise from apparently good root, the evil can and does arise from an apparently good root, the desire to benefit the world and others-speedily and according to the benefactors own plans - is a recurrent motive. Continental Admiral wrote: I've always pondered that as well, but then comes the question: Should I go look at pornography and then judge it? I know I'm going on, what some would say, an extreme line but while we're discussing books and such, I thought I'd offer that question. With books around our house when we were kids my mum would generally screen what we read. My sisters and I were always advanced readers. It's the same with movies and TV shows. She always screened what we watched. I'm an adult now and it is up to me to determine what is right and wrong from what I have been taught. I have to say it but I have read, in detail, the story of a former satainst turned Christian. Trust me nothing was held back. I am more worried about books like "The Mists of Avalon" which have a lot more to do with paganinsm because they go into details about the ceremonies, then I am about Harry Potter. I will say that Harry Potter is not (and probably shouldn't be pushed as) a childern's story. It is more of a coming of age story. I love mythology and that is how I view the Harry Potter series. Books are generally something you actually have to read to determine if they are good or bad, at least when it comes to fiction. Ferder- Brickfilm Maker Extraordinaire Joined: 14 Jan 2003 Posts: 1730 Location: BC, Canada Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:47 pm    Post subject: Continental Admiral wrote: I've always pondered that as well, but then comes the question: Should I go look at pornography and then judge it? I know I'm going on, what some would say, an extreme line but while we're discussing books and such, I thought I'd offer that question. LOL! Every single time there's a HP discussion, without fail, someone always comes in and brings up porn. [-X (No, don't think I need to hear an explanation for this. I just thought it was an odd trend) Last edited by Ferder- on Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total Gandalf Cursor Always on Submit Button Member Joined: 30 Nov 2002 Posts: 876 Location: Desolation Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:17 pm    Post subject: I've already said my spell (no pun intentended) on this subject, but I'm curious why people think they have to bring up LOTR to justify themselves? It seems to me that the books should be justifiable on their own, apart from even mentioning LOTR, if they are good books. If you can't build an argument on anything but "well you read LOTR so you can't talk about it", then perhaps you should reconsider your position. Again, I do want to make it clear I don't really see magic as an issue in HP or LOTR, but I think it's pathetic that people on this thread can't defend HP for what it is without dragging LOTR into it all. If you don't have an argument without LOTR, Narnia, etc., refrain from posting, it just makes 'our side' look bad. GusDeHaan The TH. Inspector and etc. Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 763 Location: Im so bright You need sunglasses. Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:11 pm    Post subject: Amadeo wrote: dawningoftime wrote: The problem I have is that a lot of people who rant against the books haven't read them. I chose to withhold judgement of the books until I read them and after I read them thought they weren't that bad. People don't have problems with fairytales yet they have a problem with Harry Potter? There's a disconnect for me. How bad does something have to be before you will condemn without viewing? I dunno, how bout you tell us and that way we have a stringent set of rules to live by so that we match up to a law ... Disco Dan Scholarly Artist Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 3723 Location: In the land of Deep but not Profound... Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:51 pm    Post subject: Heh, looks like he called your bluff! Jonathan Dungeon Master Joined: 21 Oct 2004 Posts: 2254 Location: Minnesota and/or North Dakota Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 3:46 am    Post subject: I happened to find an article on this, written by a Christian. You can figure out where he stands in the first two sentences, but nonetheless it's a good article. I also found something that can be used in the arguement concerning magic in CON. CON is a allegory. God is called (if I remember correctly) "The Emperor Across the Sea". Aslan's (who is representing Jesus) magic is attributed to The Emperor Across the Sea (if I remember correctly, again. It's been awhile since I read them). That makes them good, not evil. Also, other magic in those books, such as "The Forbidden Word" (or something like that) is shown quite clearly to be evil, bad magic so to speak. I haven't thought this out too well, but to those who are saying we are parading a double-standard, does this solve the issue? For instance, on page 2 of that article it says that the magic in HP is not attributed to God, which makes it wrong, not to mention the school is called Hogwarts School of witchcraft and wizardry (italics mine). All this goes to show that calling some of the magic in CON, Aslan's for example, good and calling the magic in HP bad is not holding a double standard. I apologize if this post doesn't make a whole ton of sense, as I'm posting at 2:45am. -Jonathan Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First     The Town Hall Forum Index -> Impolite Company All times are GMT - 5 Hours Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 10, 11, 12, 13  Next Page 11 of 13 Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group