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Ahh, the nostalgia.
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Amadeo
Senior Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 1207
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 Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Coralfish wrote: | Then I suppose I shan't have to worry about dreaming. How convenient. 
In all earnestness, I don't purport to know anything from personal experience, however, several articles and publications have addressed the issue in some detail. It was to them that I referred. |
:ylol:
| Jared wrote: | | Edit: Earlier, I was accused of accepting the Lockean concept of tabula rasa. |
Something not disproven.
| Coralfish wrote: | | It is hard to speculate, but you're right in saying that it is hard to understand how one's unconscious "semi-cognitive" thoughts can be considered to be just as binding (for lack of a better term) as their waking thoughts. It seems very hard to pin responsibility on an unintentional act. And dreaming is precisely that, the last time I checked. |
I suppose this might beg the question of whether or not this could be compared to being drunk or on drugs. Then again, sleep is natural (for most people). y:P
| Coralfish wrote: | | Addendum: I responded to that post, believing it was Continental Admiral. The respective Sen. Frists are beginning to confuse me. |
That was their goal.
| Continental Admiral wrote: | | In my experience with dreaming, I'm never really able to control the dream. |
I have been able to control my dreams. Not most of them, by any means, but a few. |
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Jared
Cute and Cuddly
Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Posts: 4672
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Amadeo wrote: | | Jared wrote: | | Edit: Earlier, I was accused of accepting the Lockean concept of tabula rasa. |
Something not disproven. |
I know this is completely beside the point for this thread, but if you really believe that I support the tabula rasa concept, would you mind explaining why you think that in the relevant thread? That's a rather serious charge, and I don't think it reflects my philosophical understanding on the matter in the slightest.
| Amadeo wrote: | | Coralfish wrote: | | It is hard to speculate, but you're right in saying that it is hard to understand how one's unconscious "semi-cognitive" thoughts can be considered to be just as binding (for lack of a better term) as their waking thoughts. It seems very hard to pin responsibility on an unintentional act. And dreaming is precisely that, the last time I checked. |
I suppose this might beg the question of whether or not this could be compared to being drunk or on drugs. Then again, sleep is natural (for most people).  |
Alcohol and other narcotics impair judgment, but there is, nonetheless, consciousness and a level of cognitive ability, at least until alcohol levels (or the equivalent with drugs) actually induce unconsciousness.
So a few differences here:
1. Drunkenness and drug highs are self-imposed choices which are, as you suggested, neither necessary, rational or moral. The same clearly cannot be said for sleep.
2. Acts committed when under the influence of drugs or alcohol, therefore, are a clear effect of the decision to imbibe.
3. The individual remains conscious and retains some sense of right and wrong despite the fact that confusion reigns and thoughts, emotions, desires and fears are writ large and more readily acted upon. In other words, while one does not have complete control, one is still making choices.
Dreams offer none of these distinctives. Dreams are not readily understandable even by modern science. They are frequently irrational. The idea that anyone can control their dreams is almost universally rejected, the only proponents thereof usually being the new ageish groups that would love to sell you books on how to realize your dream state and take control of it, etc.
It might be wondered how this can be, since there are so many testimonies of people who claim that they knew they were dreaming, or "made decisions" in their dreams. They're not lying. However, neither are they showing rational decision-making in their dreams. One can dream that one is dreaming -- how many of you have dreamt that you were sleeping? A man might realize he is dreaming, or even dream that he makes choices in his dream, or a combination of both, but is he really making those decisions, or is he dreaming it?
Considering the nature of dreams, and how many scenarios, from the mundane to the absurd, are played out in them, is it any surprise that one could dream of such things? And given this, why must it be concluded that there are a special category of controllable dreams? Is it not much more rational to conclude that even if we "know" a dream is a dream, or even if in our dreams, we dream that we are controlling our dreams, we still are simply dreaming, and our conscious mind is not making any rational judgments? |
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Amadeo
Senior Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 1207
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Jared wrote: | | Amadeo wrote: | | Jared wrote: | | Edit: Earlier, I was accused of accepting the Lockean concept of tabula rasa. |
Something not disproven. |
I know this is completely beside the point for this thread, but if you really believe that I support the tabula rasa concept, would you mind explaining why you think that in the relevant thread? That's a rather serious charge, and I don't think it reflects my philosophical understanding on the matter in the slightest. |
You are generalizing my statement. In regard to spiritual inheritances based on the sins of the parents, you believe that children are only affected by specific sins if they are around their parent. I would disagree and say that if an adopted child's parent had a propensity toward acoholism, so would the child. That does not mean they will follow that path, though.
| Jared wrote: | | Amadeo wrote: | | Coralfish wrote: | | It is hard to speculate, but you're right in saying that it is hard to understand how one's unconscious "semi-cognitive" thoughts can be considered to be just as binding (for lack of a better term) as their waking thoughts. It seems very hard to pin responsibility on an unintentional act. And dreaming is precisely that, the last time I checked. |
I suppose this might beg the question of whether or not this could be compared to being drunk or on drugs. Then again, sleep is natural (for most people). |
Alcohol and other narcotics impair judgment, but there is, nonetheless, consciousness and a level of cognitive ability, at least until alcohol levels (or the equivalent with drugs) actually induce unconsciousness.
So a few differences here:
1. Drunkenness and drug highs are self-imposed choices which are, as you suggested, neither necessary, rational or moral. The same clearly cannot be said for sleep.
2. Acts committed when under the influence of drugs or alcohol, therefore, are a clear effect of the decision to imbibe.
3. The individual remains conscious and retains some sense of right and wrong despite the fact that confusion reigns and thoughts, emotions, desires and fears are writ large and more readily acted upon. In other words, while one does not have complete control, one is still making choices.
Dreams offer none of these distinctives. Dreams are not readily understandable even by modern science. They are frequently irrational. The idea that anyone can control their dreams is almost universally rejected, the only proponents thereof usually being the new ageish groups that would love to sell you books on how to realize your dream state and take control of it, etc.
It might be wondered how this can be, since there are so many testimonies of people who claim that they knew they were dreaming, or "made decisions" in their dreams. They're not lying. However, neither are they showing rational decision-making in their dreams. One can dream that one is dreaming -- how many of you have dreamt that you were sleeping? A man might realize he is dreaming, or even dream that he makes choices in his dream, or a combination of both, but is he really making those decisions, or is he dreaming it?
Considering the nature of dreams, and how many scenarios, from the mundane to the absurd, are played out in them, is it any surprise that one could dream of such things? And given this, why must it be concluded that there are a special category of controllable dreams? Is it not much more rational to conclude that even if we "know" a dream is a dream, or even if in our dreams, we dream that we are controlling our dreams, we still are simply dreaming, and our conscious mind is not making any rational judgments? |
Thank you, Jared. I can always count on you to provide a thorough answer to my questions.  |
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rosie
Inquisitive Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 1197
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Continental Admiral wrote: | | rosie wrote: | | Considering the complexity of the mind, it's quite likely. Consider this... most dreams are passive physically, but there are exceptions: sleepwalking. Is it crazy to think that there can be other exceptions to the passivity of dreams? |
I'm not trying to be harsh here, just trying to understand your view of this. However, isn't sleepwalking done completely unconsciously? |
Good point... I was thinking about .... something. I forgot. Anyway, I had a good reason to say that that doesn't make sense now.
Jared, about the dreaming about making choices... sure, that can happen. But I think people can also really make choices in some dreams... I could be wrong, but I think it's definite possibility (oops... I've said that few times, haven't I?).
No comments on my speculation about spiritual things? Am I being to bizzare (don't answer that)? |
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GusDeHaan
The TH. Inspector and etc.
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 763
Location: Im so bright You need sunglasses.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| rosie wrote: | . But I think people can also really make choices in some dreams
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I will still say no, The choices are not real, but rather are part of a dream in it's natural unraveling in your mind. Anyone who has "made" choices in a dream really hasn't made them at all,
A. How would you prove a choice has been made.
B. If you were to suddenly make a choice to kill yourself would it happen ?
C: Choice may not actually exist, and is a lie we tell ourselves to give us some control over life.. [ jesting only here.. hehe] |
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rosie
Inquisitive Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 1197
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| GusDeHaan wrote: | | rosie wrote: | . But I think people can also really make choices in some dreams
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I will still say no, The choices are not real, but rather are part of a dream in it's natural unraveling in your mind. Anyone who has "made" choices in a dream really hasn't made them at all,
A. How would you prove a choice has been made.
B. If you were to suddenly make a choice to kill yourself would it happen ?
C: Choice may not actually exist, and is a lie we tell ourselves to give us some control over life.. [ jesting only here.. hehe] |
If you were to suddenly make a choice to kill yourself, could you not do it while unconcious? It's possible. People can sleep walk and more. I've heards some bizarre stories. Sure it's unlikely, but I'm talking about something rather rare if it does exist anyway. |
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GusDeHaan
The TH. Inspector and etc.
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 763
Location: Im so bright You need sunglasses.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| rosie wrote: |
If you were to suddenly make a choice to kill yourself, could you not do it while unconcious? It's possible. People can sleep walk and more. I've heards some bizarre stories. Sure it's unlikely, but I'm talking about something rather rare if it does exist anyway. |
I still don't think you can make cognitive choices, choices that you know what you are doing, choices where you decide that you want to do something, sure you may watch a choice , but you haven't made it. I keep researching this, and I don't find anyone other than "spiritists" claiming that one can make choices in dreams.. |
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