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The Town Hall Archives
Ahh, the nostalgia.
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Jared
Cute and Cuddly
Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Posts: 4672
Location: Pennsylvania
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 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Some claim to be able to control their dreams, but could they not dream of dreaming? Or could their "control" not be imagined? I'm just musing out loud here, but I see no reason to believe that one is responsible for the "thoughts" in unconsciousness.
Edit: Earlier, I was accused of accepting the Lockean concept of tabula rasa. Does the above expose me as a Marxist? (False consciousness and all...)
Last edited by Jared on Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:30 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Coralfish
Town Hall Judge
Joined: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 1790
Location: Southern Academia
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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It is hard to speculate, but you're right in saying that it is hard to understand how one's unconscious "semi-cognitive" thoughts can be considered to be just as binding (for lack of a better term) as their waking thoughts. It seems very hard to pin responsibility on an unintentional act. And dreaming is precisely that, the last time I checked.
Addendum: I responded to that post, believing it was Continental Admiral. The respective Sen. Frists are beginning to confuse me.  |
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Continental Admiral
Ornery Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 867
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Coralfish wrote: | | In all earnestness, I don't purport to know anything from personal experience, however, several articles and publications have addressed the issue in some detail. It was to them that I referred. |
I didn't mean to question your view on the matter.
In my experience with dreaming, I'm never really able to control the dream. In a day dream, yes, I can control that, since I'm wide awake. I've often imagined being in control of the universe. I don't know how you (general use of the word "you")could possibly control a dream, since in all my experience, I've been entirely unconscious while sleeping. Besides, who in their conscious right mind would just stand there, on the brink of getting killed by a pack of angry, hungry wolves? Just an example, and I see I'm rambling.
| Coralfish wrote: | | Addendum: I responded to that post, believing it was Continental Admiral. The respective Sen. Frists are beginning to confuse me. |
For once, Jared has a nice avatar, that I like. |
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Jonathan
Dungeon Master
Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 2254
Location: Minnesota and/or North Dakota
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Amadeo wrote: | | (perhaps the same kind of awareness that knows you are dreaming). |
I don't have that. In my guinea pig dream I distinctly remember feeling panicked at quite a few places.
Has anyone besides me slept in a dream? Believe it or not I did take a nap in a dream once (in another one of them that makes me question my sanity)
-Jonathan |
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hawkeye
Linux Geek
Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Posts: 2408
Location: Inventors Corner
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Coralfish wrote: | Ah yes, I do understand this. And yet, despite varying levels of awareness you are nevertheless, asleep (which would indicate unconsciousness to some extent). I believe that this, in itself, is indication enough that the person is not making decisions with the same faculties were they awake and alert.
Then again, that's merely my opinion and the little information I have collected over time on the subject. |
Well, not all of your brain sleeps while you are 'catching Z's' Also, 'unconscious' is the lack of conscious response in the physical, is it not?
Ive made choices in dreams, and, sometimes they have been the right choice, sometimes the wrong. |
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Coralfish
Town Hall Judge
Joined: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 1790
Location: Southern Academia
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| hawkeye wrote: | | Well, not all of your brain sleeps while you are 'catching Z's' |
Of course not. We wouldn't be able to dream if it did. The brain is working during sleep, but the question that should be pointed out is this: Is it functioning the same as when it is "awake"?
| hawkeye wrote: | | Also, 'unconscious' is the lack of conscious response in the physical, is it not? |
The dictionary has 4 definitions for "unconsciousness":
1.Lacking awareness and the capacity for sensory perception; not conscious.
2. Temporarily lacking consciousness.
3. Occurring in the absence of conscious awareness or thought
4. Without conscious control; involuntary or unintended
There seems to be a definite underlying theme of lack of control. It seems to be more than a lack of a response in the physical, but also an unpredictable and uncontrollable situation.
| hawkeye wrote: | | Ive made choices in dreams, and, sometimes they have been the right choice, sometimes the wrong. |
Indeed. That often happens in dreams. At the same time though, that cannot be accredited to having the same weight as choices you make when you are awake.
The bottom line is that the brain functions during sleep, resulting in [sometimes] vivid and realistic dreams. But these dreams are not reality. Nor are they necessarily controllable by any means. Hence, it follows that responsibility is not a factor. What we do when dreaming is not so much the issue as is the fact that we are dreaming. One would hardly think that simply because a person, in the course of a dream, chooses to, say, injure another, they would even consider such a thing in a fully conscious state. |
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Twin Souls
Just Moved In
Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 20
Location: Never Land
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| I think that sometimes you can make choices in you deams. Like once I knew I was dreaming so I was like cool, I can do something that I would never do in real life. Luckily I dreamt that I woke up |
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GusDeHaan
The TH. Inspector and etc.
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 763
Location: Im so bright You need sunglasses.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Look up the following , Lucid Dreams - they are the only dreams where an individual has "control" and you prolly will agree with me that choices do not exist... THey are mearly preprogramed in your unraveling of a dream... |
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rosie
Inquisitive Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 1197
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:32 am Post subject: |
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Thankyou, hawkeye. I'm glad someone agrees with me.
The fact is, the human mind is more complicated than anyone can ever know. People think, they sleep, they dream. But I hope most of you know that there are far more mental states then just those, some of which are not restricted to waking thoughts. Just because not many people experience it, or because no psychologist has written about it, doesn't mean that the phenomena of making a "concious" right-wrong decision while sleeping is outside the realm of possibility. Considering the complexity of the mind, it's quite likely. Consider this... most dreams are passive physically, but there are exceptions: sleepwalking. Is it crazy to think that there can be other exceptions to the passivity of dreams?
That aside, I'm not sure mental states have anything to do with right or wrong decisions. Can a mentally handicapped fellow love God even if he doesn't have the capacity to fully understand in a tangible way the salvation message? I would say so, because it's a spiritual thing. I think the heart can often understand what the mind cannot. If that idea is correct, then it might make some sense that when mental distractions are put to rest, spiritual things can take place. IF certain decisions can be primarily spiritual in nature, do they even need a mental venue in which to take place? And if so, who's to say what sort of capacity is good enough? Can dreams suffice?
offtopic a bit: I really don't think spiritual influences while sleeping are very disputable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a semi-well known fact?
Duh, normal, run of the mill passive dreams are harmless. Of course. But for those of you who haven't experienced it, is it so much to ask that you consider the possibility of such a phenomena as I suggested? |
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Continental Admiral
Ornery Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 867
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| rosie wrote: | | Considering the complexity of the mind, it's quite likely. Consider this... most dreams are passive physically, but there are exceptions: sleepwalking. Is it crazy to think that there can be other exceptions to the passivity of dreams? |
I'm not trying to be harsh here, just trying to understand your view of this. However, isn't sleepwalking done completely unconsciously? |
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