The Town Hall Archives Ahh, the nostalgia.     Search   Memberlist   Log in  Which comes 1st?      The Town Hall Forum Index -> Impolite Company Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next View previous topic :: View next topic   For Salvation to occur, what must happen first? Belief  67%  [ 23 ] Repentance  5%  [ 2 ] Both Happen at Once, They go hand in hand  23%  [ 8 ] Dosen't Matter  2%  [ 1 ] Total Votes : 34 Author Message Jared Cute and Cuddly Joined: 23 Nov 2002 Posts: 4672 Location: Pennsylvania Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:46 pm    Post subject: James is written to the "Israelites"? James was writing to believers. Their ethnicity is entirely irrelevant to the question of how they are to understand salvation. Cf. Jerusalem Council. Jared Cute and Cuddly Joined: 23 Nov 2002 Posts: 4672 Location: Pennsylvania Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:53 pm    Post subject: To briefly wade back into the main discussion here, though, I do believe that both belief and repentance are necessary, and ought not be divorced, but it is important that a proper understanding of what that means is attained. The mere knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, is rather useless. The devils believe that, as do many who say "Lord, Lord," but will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Clearly, then, there must be something more than the simple realization required for salvation. We are, in fact, to repent and believe. We believe that Christ shed His blood to wash away our iniquity, and therefore must believe that we are indeed as filthy rags. There must be a repentant spirit; if we are just "covering all bases" rather than desiring to turn to Christ, that's not saving faith. That is, incidentally, why I've never liked Pascal's Wager. Those who would actually use that to "save" the lost may not exactly be leading anyone to salvation. The secondary but related question is whether our salvation requires continual repentance. We might as well admit that if we had to confess every sin to obtain forgiveness and grace, heaven would be a very empty place. None of us (as far as I know) believe that sinless perfection can be attained here on earth. And yes, we can most certainly backslide, and will most likely have times when we are entrapped in a sin, or in a number of sins, and don't feel particularly repentant. This is not a salvation issue. This is not meant by the command to repent. Should we repent of our sins? Definitely, but it is not the basis of our continued salvation. Christian Cowgirl Doesn't Post Enough to Get a Cool Status Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 594 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:27 pm    Post subject: Jared wrote: James is written to the "Israelites"? James was writing to believers. Their ethnicity is entirely irrelevant to the question of how they are to understand salvation. Cf. Jerusalem Council. I spelled it right! Anyway, James was writing to believers under the Kingdom. People come to God differently under the Kingdom then under Grace. Kingdom: James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Grace: Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. See a difference? Jared Cute and Cuddly Joined: 23 Nov 2002 Posts: 4672 Location: Pennsylvania Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:29 pm    Post subject: Christian Cowgirl wrote: I spelled it right! Anyway, James was writing to believers under the Kingdom. People come to God differently under the Kingdom then under Grace. Kingdom: James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Grace: Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. See a difference? Both wrote during the dispensation of grace. You are correct in asserting that their intended audiences are different, but the way of salvation was one and the same; the books are nearly contemporaneous. Christian Cowgirl Doesn't Post Enough to Get a Cool Status Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 594 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:31 pm    Post subject: Jared wrote: Both wrote during the dispensation of grace. You are correct in asserting that their intended audiences are different, but the way of salvation was one and the same; the books are nearly contemporaneous. Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Jared Cute and Cuddly Joined: 23 Nov 2002 Posts: 4672 Location: Pennsylvania Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:34 pm    Post subject: Christian Cowgirl wrote: Jared wrote: Both wrote during the dispensation of grace. You are correct in asserting that their intended audiences are different, but the way of salvation was one and the same; the books are nearly contemporaneous. Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. You believe that the way of salvation, within the church age / dispensation of grace, is different for those of Jewish ancestry than it is for Gentiles? The Bible says that the gospel is for both Jew and Greek; that gospel message is the same either way. Christian Cowgirl Doesn't Post Enough to Get a Cool Status Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 594 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:47 pm    Post subject: Jared wrote: Christian Cowgirl wrote: Jared wrote: Both wrote during the dispensation of grace. You are correct in asserting that their intended audiences are different, but the way of salvation was one and the same; the books are nearly contemporaneous. Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. You believe that the way of salvation, within the church age / dispensation of grace, is different for those of Jewish ancestry than it is for Gentiles? The Bible says that the gospel is for both Jew and Greek; that gospel message is the same either way. The Dispensation of Grace intrupted the coming of the Kingdom, after Jesus was crusified He came back still offering the Kingdom. When the Jews rejected the Holy Spirit (stoning of Stephen) God stepped in with a new program. He now turns to the Gentiles, yes the Jews as well but they are no longer God's special nation. God set up new requirements and blessings for the Gentiles, but by His grace He gave us Israels spiritual blessings. Romans 15:25-27 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. Those poor saints are the ones who sold all they had, gave to the poor. Peter, James, and John reconized this transition and agreed they would minister only to the circumcision. Under Grace Jews and Gentiles come to God on the same ground, unlike being under the Law or the Kingdom. Jonathan Dungeon Master Joined: 21 Oct 2004 Posts: 2254 Location: Minnesota and/or North Dakota Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:24 pm    Post subject: Christian Cowgirl wrote: Peter, James, and John reconized this transition and agreed they would minister only to the circumcision. Peter remained in Jerusalem to witness to the 'circumcised' b/c Jesus told his disciples to remain there. Paul traveled all over the Mediterranean witnessing, not just to 'the cirumcsied'. And I believe that James was written to the church. I also believe we clarified that. -Jonathan Christian Cowgirl Doesn't Post Enough to Get a Cool Status Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 594 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:35 pm    Post subject: Jonathan wrote: And I believe that James was written to the church. I also believe we clarified that. -Jonathan If you did I missed.... Jonathan Dungeon Master Joined: 21 Oct 2004 Posts: 2254 Location: Minnesota and/or North Dakota Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:41 pm    Post subject: Christian Cowgirl wrote: Jonathan wrote: And I believe that James was written to the church. I also believe we clarified that. -Jonathan If you did I missed.... It's here: Christian Cowgirl wrote: I just wondered why you quoted from James which is written for the Isrealites and said that Ephesians, which was written to the Gentiles, was talking about the same thing. You switched from Law to Grace. Jared wrote: James is written to the "Israelites"? James was writing to believers. Their ethnicity is entirely irrelevant to the question of how they are to understand salvation. Cf. Jerusalem Council. Which brings another thought. You said something about switching from law to grace, and while law was written to the Israelites, it is relevant to us. While we can't fuffill it, and the sacrifices are no longer necessary (thanks to Jesus' sacrifice) it is a good reminder that we are imperfect, sinners deserving of hell (which can also be averted thanks to Jesus). -Jonathan Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First     The Town Hall Forum Index -> Impolite Company All times are GMT - 5 Hours Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next Page 4 of 6 Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group