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The Town Hall Archives
Ahh, the nostalgia.
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| For Salvation to occur, what must happen first? |
| Belief |
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67% |
[ 23 ] |
| Repentance |
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5% |
[ 2 ] |
| Both Happen at Once, They go hand in hand |
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23% |
[ 8 ] |
| Dosen't Matter |
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2% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 34 |
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Christian Cowgirl
Doesn't Post Enough to Get a Cool Status
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 594
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 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Jonathan wrote: | | Christian Cowgirl wrote: | | Jonathan wrote: |
And I believe that James was written to the church. I also believe we clarified that.
-Jonathan |
If you did I missed.... |
It's here:
| Christian Cowgirl wrote: | | I just wondered why you quoted from James which is written for the Isrealites and said that Ephesians, which was written to the Gentiles, was talking about the same thing. You switched from Law to Grace. |
| Jared wrote: | | James is written to the "Israelites"? James was writing to believers. Their ethnicity is entirely irrelevant to the question of how they are to understand salvation. Cf. Jerusalem Council. |
Which brings another thought. You said something about switching from law to grace, and while law was written to the Israelites, it is relevant to us. While we can't fuffill it, and the sacrifices are no longer necessary (thanks to Jesus' sacrifice) it is a good reminder that we are imperfect, sinners deserving of hell (which can also be averted thanks to Jesus).
-Jonathan |
Ah thank you, but I didn't fully grasp the full meaning of Jareds post...
I'm not saying things like "Do not kill" still arn't in effect. Paul reinstates them through out his books. One place... Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
But then comes up the subject... if you still want to keep the law, do you keep the Sabbath? |
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Disco Dan
Scholarly Artist
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 3723
Location: In the land of Deep but not Profound...
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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3 pages in one day!? 
Alas! It shall take me forver to recap!!!  |
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Amadeo
Senior Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 1207
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Gandalf wrote: | | I agree that we should repent after being saved. However, it is absolutely not a factor in determining your eternal destiny. |
I must heartily disagree there. The Bible points out that we are saved by our faith alone because our works are not enough to save us. However, it also says that if we have no works, we have a dead (unreal) faith. If we believed, it would show through. (Note: I am not ruling out deathbed conversions).
| Gandalf wrote: | | I am probably considered an extreamist on the side of free-grace because I have seen the damage that believing repentance is required causes. At the very worst, it can d--n a person if they are trusting their repentance instead of Christ to get them to Heaven. This subject IS important and we need to be clear on it. |
We all trust Christ to get us into Heaven, Gandalf, because we all know that we are sinners who do not deserve to be saved.  It is the free grace that saves us, but we must actually accept that grace. A one-time head decision will not prove that. What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14)
| Jeremy wrote: | Isn't that part of what salvation is? An "inward change"? The Holy Spirit brings our dead spirit to eternal life. Our spirit is regenerated--wouldn't that be called an "inward change"?
"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'"
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:3, 6 NASB.) |
Agreed.
| Jared wrote: | | None of us (as far as I know) believe that sinless perfection can be attained here on earth. |
And here I always thought you were perfect. ;)
Actually, my belief is that sinless perfection should be our goal although we will not accomplish it until the hereafter. |
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Gandalf
Cursor Always on Submit Button Member
Joined: 30 Nov 2002
Posts: 876
Location: Desolation
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Amadeo wrote: | | Gandalf wrote: | | I agree that we should repent after being saved. However, it is absolutely not a factor in determining your eternal destiny. |
I must heartily disagree there. The Bible points out that we are saved by our faith alone because our works are not enough to save us. However, it also says that if we have no works, we have a dead (unreal) faith. If we believed, it would show through. (Note: I am not ruling out deathbed conversions). |
True faith will. But how long does one have to have faith for it to be considered 'real'? Several days? Long enough for a change of life? Or is a genuine, heart felt faith that only last a few seconds qualify? I would say yes, the Bible doesn't say how long one has to believe, in fact it uses the Greek verb for a one time action occuring at one time in the past in verses like John 3:16, etc. Ergo, if you have faith, I do believe it will become evident in your life. But I don't believe every saved person continually has faith. Some people's faith is dead. Some faith became dead after years of dedicated Christian life, others became dead after a few weeks, others may have died a moment or two after it became real. It's not our place to judge how long one has to have faith before one is saved.
Again, you must disect which portions of Scriture were given to saved people and which were not. James was given to people who were already saved, and is therefore not germain to this conversation.
| Amadeo wrote: | | Gandalf wrote: | | I am probably considered an extreamist on the side of free-grace because I have seen the damage that believing repentance is required causes. At the very worst, it can d--n a person if they are trusting their repentance instead of Christ to get them to Heaven. This subject IS important and we need to be clear on it. |
We all trust Christ to get us into Heaven, Gandalf, because we all know that we are sinners who do not deserve to be saved. It is the free grace that saves us, but we must actually accept that grace. A one-time head decision will not prove that. What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14) |
It may not prove it, but it really doesn't matter if you are or I think someone is saved or not. It's not between other humans to decide, thankfully, it's up to God.
Actually, if you are trusting IN your repentance at ALL to save you, keep you saved, etc., then you aren't completely trusting in Christ. It's still saying to God 'Yes, I believe Christ came and died for my sin, and if I will turn away from my sin, I can be saved.' But we don't play a part in our salvation, except to believe, Christ does ALL of the work. (offtopic: including bringing us to the point of belief) My whole point is that repentance may be an effect of faith (simple belief) but it is most emphatically NOT a part of receiving salvation.
| Amadeo wrote: | | Jeremy wrote: | Isn't that part of what salvation is? An "inward change"? The Holy Spirit brings our dead spirit to eternal life. Our spirit is regenerated--wouldn't that be called an "inward change"?
"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'"
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:3, 6 NASB.) |
Agreed.
| Jared wrote: | | None of us (as far as I know) believe that sinless perfection can be attained here on earth. |
And here I always thought you were perfect. ;)
Actually, my belief is that sinless perfection should be our goal although we will not accomplish it until the hereafter. |
[/quote]
I would guess that most of us do indeed believe this, but you are making awfully muddy waters by even mentioning this on a topic that is discussing salvation. One of the biggest, damnable dangers that Christians fall into is mixing up or confusing the topics of Salvation and Christian Living. Both are extreamely important but should NOT be confused at all! Christian Living comes after Salvation, and shouldn't be discussed in the same breath, otherwise, babes in Christ may become confused about what belongs in which category, as is the case in this topic. Belief is the only thing that even belongs in the category of Salvation, repentance belongs in Christian Living.
I hope this clears things up.[/b] |
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Amadeo
Senior Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 1207
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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I will try to be a succinct as possible here, but I am close to leaving this discussion altogether should it appear entirely unprofitable.
| Gandalf wrote: | True faith will. But how long does one have to have faith for it to be considered 'real'? Several days? Long enough for a change of life? Or is a genuine, heart felt faith that only last a few seconds qualify? I would say yes, the Bible doesn't say how long one has to believe, in fact it uses the Greek verb for a one time action occuring at one time in the past in verses like John 3:16, etc. Ergo, if you have faith, I do believe it will become evident in your life. But I don't believe every saved person continually has faith. Some people's faith is dead. Some faith became dead after years of dedicated Christian life, others became dead after a few weeks, others may have died a moment or two after it became real. It's not our place to judge how long one has to have faith before one is saved.
Again, you must disect which portions of Scriture were given to saved people and which were not. James was given to people who were already saved, and is therefore not germain to this conversation. |
Except that I happen to be one of those people who believes that someone can lose his salvation given certain circumstances. :P
Also, my purpose for writing the above was not to discuss how long faith must be evident, but the need for repentance.
| Gandalf wrote: | | Actually, if you are trusting IN your repentance at ALL to save you, keep you saved, etc., then you aren't completely trusting in Christ. It's still saying to God 'Yes, I believe Christ came and died for my sin, and if I will turn away from my sin, I can be saved.' But we don't play a part in our salvation, except to believe, Christ does ALL of the work. (offtopic: including bringing us to the point of belief) My whole point is that repentance may be an effect of faith (simple belief) but it is most emphatically NOT a part of receiving salvation. |
And I do not believe that God will judge people who find repentance a necessary part of their salvation.
| Gandalf wrote: | | I would guess that most of us do indeed believe this, but you are making awfully muddy waters by even mentioning this on a topic that is discussing salvation. One of the biggest, damnable dangers that Christians fall into is mixing up or confusing the topics of Salvation and Christian Living. Both are extreamely important but should NOT be confused at all! Christian Living comes after Salvation, and shouldn't be discussed in the same breath, otherwise, babes in Christ may become confused about what belongs in which category, as is the case in this topic. Belief is the only thing that even belongs in the category of Salvation, repentance belongs in Christian Living. |
I think you are terribly mistaken. Christianity is not a one-time choice but a way of life. To divorce salvation and the life lived afterward is a grave mistake, in my opinion, and contributes to false "conversions" and baby Christians who are not growing in the faith. We all seem to agree about how we are saved, but it is important to acknowledge the necessary aspect of repentance at the time of salvation and the necessity of growth in the Christian life following.
| Gandalf wrote: | | I hope this clears things up. |
Gandalf, your position seems clear. Whether or not people agree is another matter.
And after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."
Mark 1:14,15 |
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Gandalf
Cursor Always on Submit Button Member
Joined: 30 Nov 2002
Posts: 876
Location: Desolation
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for replying. I would find it safe to say, at least our part of this topic, is finished. We believe two very different Gospels, and a topic like this cannot be discussed between two such completely different worldviews. |
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Amadeo
Senior Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 1207
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Gandalf wrote: | | Thanks for replying. I would find it safe to say, at least our part of this topic, is finished. |
I agree except . . .
| Gandalf wrote: | | We believe two very different Gospels, and a topic like this cannot be discussed between two such completely different worldviews. |
I have to address this quickly. We have differing interpretations, but we share the same Gospel. |
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Elrohir
New Citizen
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 75
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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belief in Christ (putting your faith and trust in Jesus Christ for the atonement of your sins) is the only requirement for salvation in the Bible. I think repentance comes as a direct result from belief.
*tosses two pennies* |
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PonysHorses
Junior Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 185
Location: My house
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Christian Cowgirl wrote: | | Simbelmyne34 wrote: | | you have to believe before you can repent! |
Yep, you have to get right with God before repentance means anything. |
I double that!  |
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jessicado
It'll Take Me Years to Get to 2000 Posts
Joined: 06 Sep 2003
Posts: 722
Location: Oregon........I waaaaanna know-have you ever seeeeeeeeen the rain?
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| The chicken..... |
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