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For Salvation to occur, what must happen first?

Belief

67%

[ 23 ]

Repentance

[ 2 ]

Both Happen at Once, They go hand in hand

23%

[ 8 ]

Dosen't Matter

[ 1 ]

Total Votes : 34

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Message

Jared
Cute and Cuddly

Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Posts: 4672
Location: Pennsylvania

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:28 pm Post subject:

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

How can you suggest to read John to learn more about faith and then put down Eph. 2:8-9? They are in direct contrast: James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Are you suggesting that these two passages are contradictory? If so, how can we trust any of scripture?

James is written to lukewarm Christians who weren't showing their faith; he's saying that by our works, we are known, and that a true Christian would act the part, at least to some extent. He is not saying that the works themselves save.

How else can we understand Paul's assertion that Abraham was justified by faith and James insistance that Abraham was justified by works, for example? There is no contradiction. Paul writes of Abraham's salvation, James of the fruit of his salvation. (In fact, James seems to be referring specifically to Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac, which can only be understood as an affirmation of faith, as he was the Lord's servant long before that.)

Amadeo
Senior Member

Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 1207

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:42 pm Post subject:

Jonathan wrote:

Christian Cowgirl, what is meant is that without works, our faith is basically dead.

Basically? I do not see that word in James.

Jonathan wrote:

However works alone won't get us to heaven, just doing good things doesn't cut it, like alot of people think.

Indeed. We must work to avoid both extremes. 1) The idea that works alone will save you and 2) the idea that belief without action will save you.

Will anyone be saved if they have a dead faith?

Jared wrote:

James is written to lukewarm Christians who weren't showing their faith; he's saying that by our works, we are known, and that a true Christian would act the part, at least to some extent. He is not saying that the works themselves save.

So perhaps these "lukewarm Christians" were not saved?

Jared wrote:

How else can we understand Paul's assertion that Abraham was justified by faith and James insistance that Abraham was justified by works, for example? There is no contradiction. Paul writes of Abraham's salvation, James of the fruit of his salvation.

Agreed. If Abraham had only retained his head belief without acting upon it, what would have been the result?

Christian Cowgirl
Doesn't Post Enough to Get a Cool Status

Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 594

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:14 pm Post subject:

Amadeo wrote:

Jonathan wrote:

Christian Cowgirl, what is meant is that without works, our faith is basically dead.

Basically? I do not see that word in James.

Nor did I.

Amadeo wrote:

Jonathan wrote:

However works alone won't get us to heaven, just doing good things doesn't cut it, like alot of people think.

Indeed. We must work to avoid both extremes. 1) The idea that works alone will save you and 2) the idea that belief without action will save you.

I believe that faith alone saves, and that works are the fruit showing salvation.

Jared wrote:

Are you suggesting that these two passages are contradictory?

Did I not say so?

Jared wrote:

If so, how can we trust any of scripture?

We can read the address to see whom the writer is addressing. James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Jared wrote:

I didn't know Abraham was an issue! I'm not sure what your getting at...

Amadeo
Senior Member

Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 1207

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:20 pm Post subject:

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

I believe that faith alone saves, and that works are the fruit showing salvation.

Indeed. With the modern emphasis on being saved by faith alone (which is in the Bible) some people fall into the error of thinking that professing faith without inward change will save them. We see that both are necessary for a living faith.

Gandalf
Cursor Always on Submit Button Member

Joined: 30 Nov 2002
Posts: 876
Location: Desolation

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject:

Amadeo wrote:

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

I believe that faith alone saves, and that works are the fruit showing salvation.

This whole conversation is getting a bit confusing! :)

I disagree with you. I don't see anywhere in Scripture that leads me to believe an 'inward change' must be made in order to be saved. Simple faith is all that is required to avoid Hellfire.

I do agree that works are required for a 'living faith', but then we're getting into whether or not one can lose one's salvation or not. We're not really discussing whether one has to have 'living faith' when one dies in order to go to Heaven. I don't believe so, but I do believe one could have had a real, or 'living', faith at one time and it be dead in the present time and that person still be saved from the punishment of sin. The word 'dead' does imply that it was once alive, vs. nonexistant in the first place.

Whooee! That is a confusing paragraph, I do hope it makes sense.

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

Gandalf wrote:
These are just a few verses. For more study on the subject, I would suggest reading the book of John, which is the only book of the Bible written to unbelievers.

Ephesians 2:8-9

How can you suggest to read John to learn more about faith and then put down Eph. 2:8-9? They are in direct contrast: James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Forgive me, but what exactly are you attempting to argue? That the Bible isn't consistent? I believe it is. God is not a god of disorder but of order. He wouldn't put contradictions into His inspired Word. Therefore, if something seems to contradict, we must conclude that they are mistranslated, misunderstood, or talking about something completely different. As Jared pointed out, James and John (as well as the other verses I mentioned) are talking about two different subject, therefore they are not contradicting one another.

Jonathan
Dungeon Master

Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 2254
Location: Minnesota and/or North Dakota

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:23 pm Post subject:

Amadeo wrote:

Jonathan wrote:

Christian Cowgirl, what is meant is that without works, our faith is basically dead.

Basically? I do not see that word in James.

Amadeo wrote:

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

I believe that faith alone saves, and that works are the fruit showing salvation.

While it doesn't appear in the book of James, it seems as if you agree with me.

-Jonathan

Continental Admiral
Ornery Member

Joined: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 867

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:36 pm Post subject:

Gandalf wrote:

Amadeo wrote:

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

I believe that faith alone saves, and that works are the fruit showing salvation.

We are saved by grace (by grace ye are saved). By accepting Jesus Christ as our personal savior we are given everlasting life. However, that doesn't mean we simply continue in our sinful ways, neglecting the sacrifice Christ made. Faith without works is dead. James 2:17--Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. I'm making a pretty good guess by saying that I don't think any of the people involved in this "debate" disagree with such a point. We must be careful not to go extreme on both ends, seems to be the message.

Now, my computer seems to be working oddly tonight, forgive me if this didn't make much sense. I've been puzzled, and my mind is side-tracked.

Gandalf
Cursor Always on Submit Button Member

Joined: 30 Nov 2002
Posts: 876
Location: Desolation

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:47 pm Post subject:

I agree that we should repent after being saved. However, it is absolutely not a factor in determining your eternal destiny. We need to be careful about the way we present repentance to unbelievers. Let's not create muddy waters. These are two entirely different subjects (salvation and life of a saved person) that shouldn't be confused or combined in anyway, as they are completely unrelated. If you believe that repentance must follow belief or visa versa in order to be saved, you don't agree with Ephesians 2:8-9 and a host of other verses. It should, but it doesn't neccesarily always do so. I am probably considered an extreamist on the side of free-grace because I have seen the damage that believing repentance is required causes. At the very worst, it can d--n a person if they are trusting their repentance instead of Christ to get them to Heaven. This subject IS important and we need to be clear on it.

Jeremy
The Great Debater

Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 448
Location: Arizona, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:

Gandalf wrote:

Amadeo wrote:

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

I believe that faith alone saves, and that works are the fruit showing salvation.

Isn't that part of what salvation is? An "inward change"? The Holy Spirit brings our dead spirit to eternal life. Our spirit is regenerated--wouldn't that be called an "inward change"?

"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'"

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:3, 6 NASB.)

Jeremy

Christian Cowgirl
Doesn't Post Enough to Get a Cool Status

Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 594

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:38 pm Post subject:

Gandalf wrote:

Christian Cowgirl wrote:

We can read the address to see whom the writer is addressing. James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

That was all I was getting at.. The Bible doesn't contradict its self. I just wondered why you quoted from James which is written for the Isrealites and said that Ephesians, which was written to the Gentiles, was talking about the same thing. You switched from Law to Grace.

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