The Town Hall: What is "demonic"?

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What is "demonic"?

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Amadeo
Senior Member

Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 1207

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:11 am Post subject:

Eugene Blackgaard wrote:

I never said Satan does not tempt us! But with the seal of God on us, he can not touch us. We are our bride's, and his alone. Jesus will not co-share our being.

It is not that I disagree, I am just looking for some more solid references.

So the devil cannot "touch" us by causing us to be demonized, but we Christians can experience spiritual warfare and be tempted by demons?

Disco Dan
Scholarly Artist

Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 3723
Location: In the land of Deep but not Profound...

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:14 am Post subject:

There's a clear distinct difference. Even Jesus himself was tempted. Even he experianced spiritual warfare. So can we, however the Devil is not directly "touching" us. And I don't mean "touch" in the literal pyhsical sense. The Devil "touching" somone is meant by me when an unsaved person comes across some for of demonic influence, and is consumed by it.

Amadeo
Senior Member

Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 1207

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:30 am Post subject:

Jeremy wrote:

The fact that those who are born again (born of God) do not practice sin (that's what the Greek means)

While your explanation sounds reasonable, can you explain how that is actually contained in the Greek? The word used for "sin" in that passage appears rather general.

Eugene Blackgaard wrote:

There's a clear distinct difference. Even Jesus himself was tempted. Even he experianced spiritual warfare. So can we, however the Devil is not directly "touching" us. And I don't mean "touch" in the literal pyhsical sense. The Devil "touching" somone is meant by me when an unsaved person comes across some for of demonic influence, and is consumed by it.

I suppose that is obvious enough since we experience those things yet the verse says he cannot touch us. I am requesting more verses, though, because I do not see that this proves or disproves demon-possession (it might and I may be missing it). Please bear with me.

Jeremy
The Great Debater

Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 448
Location: Arizona, USA

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:57 am Post subject:

Amadeo wrote:

Jeremy wrote:

The fact that those who are born again (born of God) do not practice sin (that's what the Greek means)

While your explanation sounds reasonable, can you explain how that is actually contained in the Greek? The word used for "sin" in that passage appears rather general.

That is how I heard the meaning of that word explained in a sermon. The Amplified Bible states it, "We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin,"

Amadeo wrote:

Eugene Blackgaard wrote:

Here are a few more:

"The LORD will protect you from all evil; He will keep your soul." (Psalm 121:7 NASB.)

"I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one." (John 17:15 NASB.)

Also, the whole chapters of Ephesians 1 and 2 taken together in context seem to be teaching that Christians cannot be demon possessed (among other teachings of course). It would be quite long to post, but in a nutshell, we have been set free from Satan's control and power in our lives. If a Christian was demon possessed I don't think you could say that they are free from Satan's control! 1 John 2:13-14 says that we "have overcome [Gr. past action having lasting status] the evil one."

Jeremy

Last edited by Jeremy on Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total

Jonathan
Dungeon Master

Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 2254
Location: Minnesota and/or North Dakota

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:01 am Post subject:

Jeremy wrote:

That is how I heard it explained in a sermon. The Amplified Bible states it, "We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin,"

Jeremy

I assume you don't mean the people who are born again don't sin, but that's how it's coming across. Could you clarify?

-Jonathan

Jeremy
The Great Debater

Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 448
Location: Arizona, USA

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:11 am Post subject:

Jonathan wrote:

Jeremy wrote:

That is how I heard it explained in a sermon. The Amplified Bible states it, "We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin,"

Jeremy

I assume you don't mean the people who are born again don't sin, but that's how it's coming across. Could you clarify?

-Jonathan

Yes, of course we sin. But if someone practices sin, if they habitually sin from the heart, that means their heart has not been changed. Galatians 5:21 (NASB) says, "...those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Jon Courson's commentary says, "The works of the flesh in one's life reveal an absence of relationship with the Lord. You see, Paul is not speaking of the person who struggles with these things, or has fallen into these things — but of the person who perpetually, habitually practices these things arrogantly, stubbornly, and with no desire to be set free from them."--http://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/jon_courson/Gal/Gal005.html

Jeremy

Amadeo
Senior Member

Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 1207

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:54 pm Post subject:

Jeremy wrote:

Amadeo wrote:

Jeremy wrote:

The fact that those who are born again (born of God) do not practice sin (that's what the Greek means)

While your explanation sounds reasonable, can you explain how that is actually contained in the Greek? The word used for "sin" in that passage appears rather general.

I am not trying to be overly argumentative, but the Amplified Bible is not the original Greek, right? The Greek word used for "sin" in that passage is hamartano which means "to miss the mark, err, sin." It occurs in the New Testament thirty-seven times, including in the following verse:

Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:3

Again, your explanation seems reasonable because we must have some way to explain why Christians still sin.

Jeremy wrote:

Yet we agree that we can be tempted and encounter spiritual warfare as Christians. What if I said that those verses were only indicating that the devil cannot snatch your salvation from you, but that it does not prevent you from giving ground to his minions if you persist in a sin?

Just some thoughts to consider. Thank you for your willingness to answer my questions, Jeremy.

If anyone wants to present an alternate view, I would like to hear it.

Jeremy
The Great Debater

Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 448
Location: Arizona, USA

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:07 pm Post subject:

Amadeo wrote:

I am not a Greek scholar, but the Greek scholars seem to think it means that. But even if it doesn't, there is another possible explanation. The context (the previous 2 verses) talks about a "sin leading to death." If that is talking about spiritual death and not physical death (which people disagree on), verse 18 may be referring to the sin "leading to death" and saying that no one who is born of God sins that sin--rejecting the Holy Spirit.

Amadeo wrote:

Jeremy wrote:

Our protection from the devil is not based on whether or not we sin, but is based on the keeping power of Jesus. And as I said, we have been set free from the devil's control (Colossians 1:13, Ephesians 1-2) and have overcome him (1 John 2:13-14).

Jeremy

Amadeo
Senior Member

Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Posts: 1207

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:41 pm Post subject:

Jeremy wrote:

So if a Christian commits adultery, they have not given any ground to the devil or one of his demons?

GusDeHaan
The TH. Inspector and etc.

Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 763
Location: Im so bright You need sunglasses.

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:24 pm Post subject:

Amadeo wrote:

Jeremy wrote:

So if a Christian commits adultery, they have not given any ground to the devil or one of his demons?

Define what you are implying, your language has many interpritations.

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