The Town Hall Archives Ahh, the nostalgia.     Search   Memberlist   Log in  Fifteen Years      The Town Hall Forum Index -> Impolite Company Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Amadeo Senior Member Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 1207 Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:44 pm    Post subject: Amen! Keep on preachin' it, Brother Walczak. Eugene Blackgaard Scholarly Artist Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 3723 Location: In the land of Deep but not Profound... Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:33 am    Post subject: I love your ability to communicate sound logic... and nonsense! This time, though, it was very much sound logic! Jonathan Dungeon Master Joined: 21 Oct 2004 Posts: 2254 Location: Minnesota and/or North Dakota Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:15 pm    Post subject: GusDeHaan wrote: Jared wrote: STRYPER wrote: It might be a little fun to imagine but extremely difficult to realistically give a good answer. God has a purpose and a specific reason for each president during each time in history (even someone like Clinton ) I know I'm injecting theology here, but should I conclude from this that you do not believe that God has a permissive will? Do you subscribe only to the concepts of a will of command and a will of decree? I don't think God has a "specific reason" for everything that happens, since I don't believe that everything happens is what He would prefer to happen. That it happened proves only that He allowed it -- that is, it fell under His permissive will -- not that He desired it, commanded it or brought it about (sovereign will). God works through everything for the good; that does not, however, mean that it is His sovereign will that everything unfolds the way it does. You'd like it to be that way, but I would tend to say that God's will is far beyond what I can comprehend, and beyond the power of logic, and therefore I would say that "tragedey" and "evil" can be part of God's will.. If evil is a part of God's will, then Satan has won. God can use anything for good, but not using evil for his will b/c he is holy and just. If his will is overriding in everything on earth, as you seem to claim, then sin would never have come into existence, and Satan would still be the archangel of heaven, and not the leader of fallen angels, the father of all lies. -Jonathan Jeremy The Great Debater Joined: 03 Jan 2003 Posts: 448 Location: Arizona, USA Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:32 pm    Post subject: Jonathan S. wrote: If his will is overriding in everything on earth, as you seem to claim, then sin would never have come into existence, and Satan would still be the archangel of heaven, and not the leader of fallen angels, the father of all lies. Where does the Bible say that Satan was ever "the archangel of heaven"? Jeremy Jonathan Dungeon Master Joined: 21 Oct 2004 Posts: 2254 Location: Minnesota and/or North Dakota Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:35 pm    Post subject: Jeremy wrote: Jonathan S. wrote: If his will is overriding in everything on earth, as you seem to claim, then sin would never have come into existence, and Satan would still be the archangel of heaven, and not the leader of fallen angels, the father of all lies. Where does the Bible say that Satan was ever "the archangel of heaven"? Jeremy I can't remember. But I do recall somewhere in the Bible talking about Satan, who was then called Lucifer, as the head angel, the most beautiful creature ever created. Until pride entered his being... -Jonathan STRYPER Seasoned Veteran Member Joined: 21 Jan 2004 Posts: 589 Location: Northern VA Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:29 am    Post subject: Jonathan wrote: If his will is overriding in everything on earth, as you seem to claim, then sin would never have come into existence, and Satan would still be the archangel of heaven, and not the leader of fallen angels, the father of all lies. What makes you think a sinless world would give God the most glory? God is extremely jealous for His own glory he WILL NOT let us or demons do anything that would not glorify Him (if you were him why would you let insignificant being rebel). He could have made us and Satan to not rebel but he didn't. Why, because somehow that rebellion, and more specifically our redemption, brings him more glory ultimately than if he had just made us all unrebellous. When something goes wrong (something that seems against God's glory) we can rest assured that God is behind it and ultimately it will give God greater glory than if it had never gone wrong. Jonathan Dungeon Master Joined: 21 Oct 2004 Posts: 2254 Location: Minnesota and/or North Dakota Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:42 am    Post subject: STRYPER wrote: Jonathan wrote: If his will is overriding in everything on earth, as you seem to claim, then sin would never have come into existence, and Satan would still be the archangel of heaven, and not the leader of fallen angels, the father of all lies. What makes you think a sinless world would give God the most glory? God is extremely jealous for His own glory he WILL NOT let us or demons do anything that would not glorify Him (if you were him why would you let insignificant being rebel). He could have made us and Satan to not rebel but he didn't. Why, because somehow that rebellion, and more specifically our redemption, brings him more glory ultimately than if he had just made us all unrebellous. When something goes wrong (something that seems against God's glory) we can rest assured that God is behind it and ultimately it will give God greater glory than if it had never gone wrong. I never said that a sinless world would give God the most glory. I'm saying is that it was not his will or intent to have us sin. He did however give us free will (out of love) and we misused it. Hope that makes sense (b/c I'm writing it really late). Also, people's purpose on earth is to glorify God (quite a challenge b/c of our fallen nature). Are you saying we couldn't do that without sin in the world? (This is a sincere question, I might've misunderstood your post). -Jonathan hawkeye Linux Geek Joined: 23 Nov 2002 Posts: 2408 Location: Inventors Corner Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:37 pm    Post subject: Siding with Jonathan in this rabbit trail.... If God had willed sin to enter the world, God would, would have to create sin, He would not be Love, God would have evil in His being which would make Him an imperfect God thus not God. Every creation is an dim reflection of its creator, and if God created sin, it would be reflecting an attribute of God. Sin is due to free will, not God, and therefore God cannot be directing everything simply out and only of His will alone. Eugene Blackgaard Scholarly Artist Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 3723 Location: In the land of Deep but not Profound... Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:54 pm    Post subject: Great post Hawk. STRYPER Seasoned Veteran Member Joined: 21 Jan 2004 Posts: 589 Location: Northern VA Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:22 am    Post subject: Jonathan wrote: I never said that a sinless world would give God the most glory. I'm saying is that it was not his will or intent to have us sin. So we broke God's will when Adam sinned? Show this from scripture please. What makes His will so fragile that you think mortal man or even demons can break it? Jonathan wrote: Are you saying we couldn't [Glorify God] without sin in the world? (This is a sincere question, I might've misunderstood your post). It's a good question, what I was saying was that sin in this world MUST most Glorify Him ultimately since He allowed it. God loves us but he loves himself more (he should). Why would love man enough to give Him free will if he knew that man would sin? Answer, because that must give Him more glory. He cares more about His own glory than giving gifts to us. *****The Hawk Returns******* Hawkeye wrote: If God had willed sin to enter the world, God would, would have to create sin, He would not be Love, God would have evil in His being which would make Him an imperfect God thus not God. I'm not sure I understand the logic here.... Why would God, if He let sin enter, have to have created sin? Sin is rebellion against God's innermost being. I'm not saying that He created rebellion (it is impossible for Him to do so) but it is His will that he creation would rebel and His redemption of rebelous sinners would give Him more glory than if he simply made everyone like the angels (the ones that haven't fallen ) Let me ask you all this... If God knew that his creation would rebel, why create us? What's the point of our existance? Did he merely hope would choose life and not rebel but when we did He just made the best of the situation? Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First     The Town Hall Forum Index -> Impolite Company All times are GMT - 5 Hours Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next Page 3 of 4 Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group