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The Town Hall Archives
Ahh, the nostalgia.
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Continental Admiral
Ornery Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 867
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 Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Watson wrote: | | Thus I submit to you the question, Jared: In light of the evidence against dating, is dating glorifying to God? If so, please explain how you think dating is the wisest and most adherent to Biblical principles. Also, explain why you think courtship is defecient. |
Alas, I enter into this discussion late, but still have time to make a slightly short post on this subject matter.
I presume, Dr. Watson, that you meant the word "deficient"?  If I may say so myself, I don't believe Jared -- or anyone else -- has said that courtship is lacking in anything. The mere point of disagreement is upon the matter of claiming that the Bible supports one system of 'dating' (In general use) over another.
It is fine to say that you, personally prefer and feel that the idea of courtship is more along the lines of which you would go, but to say the that the Bible supports one theory over the other, well, is making it more of a "right" or "wrong" issue and therefore saying that dating is entirely wrong and not within God's laws\regulations.
I see nothing wrong with parents being involved in the whole process, their advice should be sought, but in the end it is up to the two individuals involved. If left entirely up to the parents, we would be speaking of arranged marriages. Which brings up the point that in the Bible, most marriages were arranged. I presume most agree with those, around here?  If we're going to go with what the Bible has in it, and supposedly supports, it should be done all the way, it seems -- with the betrothal system of parents arranging marriages. ;)
| Dr. Watson wrote: | | Dating is the new kid on the block (to borrow the colloquialism), and has only exploded into popularity during the moral breakdowns of the 20th century. Sadly, it is accepted today as the norm. Girls are expected to have "boyfriends" and boys are expected to have "girlfriends." |
Forgive me, but the secular side of dating does indeed go from one relationship to another, without a mere thought of marriage, but not all dating examples are like that. Really, courting isn't awful, nor is the aforementioned dating. Both are nice, if you personally prefer them and both can be done with high standards, without being promiscuous in behavior, if left to mature adults (By this I mean people who should be dating -- not young people who aren't serious about marriage -- and shouldn't be dating). The objection comes in when someone says that one is biblically preferred/accepted/supported in the Bible and the other is entirely immoral/ against God's standards. It is not the "dating" or even "courting" (whichever you prefer to call it) which causes the moral breakdowns, but the wanton behavior and morals -- or lack thereof.
Anyway, I'll end my rambles now. I've enjoyed the discussion, keep it up. |
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*daniel
I like pudding.
Joined: 22 Nov 2002
Posts: 594
Location: Toronto.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| Continental Admiral wrote: | | I see nothing wrong with parents being involved in the whole process, their advice should be sought, but in the end it is up to the two individuals involved. If left entirely up to the parents, we would be speaking of arranged marriages. Which brings up the point that in the Bible, most marriages were arranged. I presume most agree with those, around here? If we're going to go with what the Bible has in it, and supposedly supports, it should be done all the way, it seems -- with the betrothal system of parents arranging marriages. |
There's something to be said for arranged marriages, but I'd have to think that they wouldn't work that well in our current culture, with our current attitudes on what marriage is and how to work it.
Considering that Abraham, for instance, came from a highly patriarchal society - very different from our own, affected as we all are by feminism be that for the better or for the worse - it would have been strange to see two young people deciding their own fate, especially from the female side.
I think these things aren't dictated as Biblically as some might seem to believe - you can pick a patriarchal society out from the guidance the Bible gives, but not one as extreme as Abraham's time. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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How many of you are married?
I'm interested to know?
I'm going to make a poll and then come back to this discussion. |
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hawkeye
Linux Geek
Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Posts: 2408
Location: Inventors Corner
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Continental Admiral wrote: | | Which brings up the point that in the Bible, most marriages were arranged. |
Where do you get that? It is neither a written fact nor in the meaning of the word. However, I do note a few ambiguities between what you said, and what it appears you meant. "Arranged" there means without the direction of those who would be married? Or do you mean arranged, as in prepared for? The latter meaning applies to any marriage that is not spontaneous.
And, regardless, by who is the marriage arranged? The parents? The two who will be married? Or by God? If it is by the parents, then I see few examples of this in the Bible (and then it also depends on what you mean by the parents arranged it). If it is by the two involved, I do see only some that fit this. If you mean by God, then arranged marriage is something a Christian should fervently seek if they are convinced God desires they marry. And, in this instance, yes, every marriage in the Bible was arranged.
| Continental Admiral wrote: | | Forgive me, but the secular side of dating does indeed go from one relationship to another, without a mere thought of marriage, but not all dating examples are like that. Really, courting isn't awful, nor is the aforementioned dating. Both are nice, if you personally prefer them and both can be done with high standards, without being promiscuous in behavior, if left to mature adults (By this I mean people who should be dating -- not young people who aren't serious about marriage -- and shouldn't be dating). The objection comes in when someone says that one is biblically preferred/accepted/supported in the Bible and the other is entirely immoral/ against God's standards. It is not the "dating" or even "courting" (whichever you prefer to call it) which causes the moral breakdowns, but the wanton behavior and morals -- or lack thereof. |
And this is why having concrete and mutually accepted definitions is a requisite for any worthwhile discussion on this topic. As I have pointed out in previous discussions on this topic, there are very significant differences between dating and betrothal and possibly courting. Betrothal, if you look at what the Bible does say about it is not arranged marriage (i.e. by parents or those involved) but arranged by God, and it is as strong as marriage, even requiring divorce (in Hebrew culture) to end it--thus there was far less problem as there was more commitment and less playing around (emotionally or physically).
Betrothal can be seen clearly in Matthew 1:19, where, depending on the translation you use, you can see 'betrothed' or 'espoused' or 'husband'. If we look at the Greek word there, aner, we see that the same word means betrothed and married. So, which were they? Well, we see the next verse where the angel tells Joseph to take Mary to be his wife, meaning they werent yet married. Luke 1:34 also quotes Mary saying "how can this be since I do not know a man?" meaning she was a virgin. But, Dueteronomy 22:13-33 speaks of the process of a man must go through to divorce his wife if he finds she is not a virgin, and speaks of the proof the parents bring. Older folks may or may not have an idea what this refers to, but a little digging reveals that just as Genesis 29 speaks of Jacob going in unto his wife and knowing her, it was Hebrew custom the man know his wife the night of the wedding, and later the parents would receive the proof of their daughter's virginity.
Therefore, Mary was betrothed which is sometimes translated to married, but why? Well, you see the definition is inclusive, but why? Well, betrothal is obviously as strong of a commitment as marrige, but without the contact allowed married couples.
So, I ask, is dating equivalent to this? Or does this (betrothal) better equate to 'engagement'?
So, taking this into account, what is the purpose of dating? Its not the engagement period, nor is it the marriage period, so what is it? It is the seeking process and getting to know you process. But where does the friendship enter? Isnt getting to know you part of friendship?
But, if God arranges the marriage, seeking is pointless, so what is the reason for dating for a Christian?
Oh, and how does dating match up with the Biblical example we all know is there of Jesus and His bride?
--Dearly Confused Person |
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Rachael Blackgaard
Thinks She Can Outsmart the Admins
Joined: 12 Dec 2002
Posts: 798
Location: XY coordinates Classified
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:18 am Post subject: |
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Ugh, the whole world has gone insane! My nine-year-old sister breaks up and gets back together with her boyfriend on a weekly basis, and she's one of the older kids I've seen dating. I feel like I'm the only person in the world who doesn't have a boyfriend. I see all these couples holding hands and kissing in the mall and think, "Why can't that be me?"
It's not that I couldn't get a boyfriend, because I could, and it's not that I don't want one, because I REALLY DO WANT ONE. It's that I had to read that stupid book by Josh Harris and realize that God had a better way for me than what everyone else was doing. Now I'm stuck knowing that as lonely as I may get, I'm saving myself the heartbreak by not dating until I'm ready to get married.
When I'm thinking logically, I realize that although I don't have a boyfriend, I do have a Father who's already arranged my marriage with someone better than I could ever pick out on my own. I've never met him, and just like in old times I won't meet him until it's the right time. By obeying my Father, I'm saving 100% of my heart for the man I'm betrothed to.
I'm not sure how I'll know I'm supposed to marry him, but God is already telling me about him. I know he's a Christian. I know that he's kind to animals and waitresses, and that we're going to go on mission trips together. I have a few more years to learn about him, so when I meet him I'll know who he is. I just have to remember that everytime someone younger than me introduces me to her boyfriend. |
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Londoner
Somewhat Aging Member
Joined: 08 Oct 2004
Posts: 430
Location: London, England, UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:44 am Post subject: |
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Great post. Just how i feel.  |
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DrBlackgaard
Ancient Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2002
Posts: 1306
Location: Sing a song about the heart land, sing a song about my life...
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| hawkeye wrote: |
So, I ask, is dating equivalent to this? Or does this (betrothal) better equate to 'engagement'?
So, taking this into account, what is the purpose of dating? Its not the engagement period, nor is it the marriage period, so what is it? It is the seeking process and getting to know you process. But where does the friendship enter? Isnt getting to know you part of friendship?
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| hawkeye wrote: | | But, if God arranges the marriage, seeking is pointless, so what is the reason for dating for a Christian? |
I'm not sure I want to be known for sticking up for dating, but this question confuses me. True, for those of us who will someday get married, we should let God arrange the marriage. He does already know who is right for us.
However, this doesn't necesarily mean that he will bring them to our front door while we sit back and relax. Just as...any of the plans that he has for us, basicly. God has plans for all of us. Where we will work, ministry, where we will live...But just because he has them planned for us doesn't mean he'll just hand them to us.
We find a job by experementing, finding what we are good at, trying this and that untill we find something we enjoy and can do well (to one degree or another).
We find a place to live based on cost, family/friends near us, climate, whatever else..
We find a ministry based on observed needs, tallents, abilities, burden for the lost, etc.
God will lead us if we are open to him, but he won't force it on us or drop it in our laps, if we want it, we have to search for it and then work towards it. Marriage is similar, I guess. God will lead us if we want Him to, but we have to do the walking, just as in all other areas of life.
If you don't get to know someone well, how do you feel you can know if they are the right one for you? You can't just see someone for the first time, go home, pray about it, and figure out they're God's choice, and get "betrothed" the next day. You have to get to know them somehow..Call it dating, call it courting, call it friendship, whatever. I guess I don't really care as long as you sincerely want God's will, have your eyes on long term commitment, and don't get too close untill you know for sure they're the one you want to spend the rest of your life with. |
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Arwen
Really Likes Personalized Ranks
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 1193
Location: The Middle of Nowhere
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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I pretty much agree with what you said, Rachel. God has the right man picked out, so there's no need to "go shopping." When it's time, God will bring us together, and after that: God will reveal to us that we should pursue a romantic relationship, and eventually we will be married.
I don't agree with searching for your future spouse. God gives us singleness for a reason, and we need to devote that time to growing closer to Him. I think that looking for romance prematurely can be very distracting. |
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